The Nutritional Merits of Animal Sourced Foods

Bobby: Welcome to Ruminations. I'm your host, Bobby Gill, and today's guest is actually an old friend of mine, Diana Rogers. She's the person who introduced me to the Savory team so many years ago, so I owe her a huge debt of gratitude. In this episode, we discuss her most recent work, a peer reviewed paper on the nutritional merits of animal sourced foods.

And the years of roadblocks and anti meat biases she faced while getting it published. We get into some nuanced nutritional discussions, we talk about the common misconceptions and tactics used by those advocating for less meat, and we even dive into what's in store for the next chapter of her life as she shifts her focus away from advocacy.

Diana Rogers is a registered dietician who, for many years, ran a clinical nutrition practice focused on weight loss and gut health. She's an author of numerous books, a filmmaker, and a fierce advocate for regenerative, nutrient dense food systems. She runs the popular Sustainable dish blog and podcast.

And she is the founder of the global food justice Alliance, a nonprofit advocating for the inclusion of animal sourced foods and dietary policies to promote a more nutritious, sustainable and equitable food system, especially for the communities that need them. The mostDiana is also the co author of the best selling book Sacred Cow and director of the documentary by the same name, which you can find on Amazon Prime Video or on YouTube for free. The film is narrated by the one and only Nick Offerman, who you may know from the TV show Parks and Rec, um, and Sacred Cow explores the ethical, environmental, and nutritional importance of meat coming from regenerative food systems.

Diana's voice has been a critical first line of defense for those of us advocating for common sense, nutrient dense animal sourced foods. She's challenged mainstream narratives and sparked important conversations globally. So getting into the weeds with her on these topics is always a treat. With that, I'll just leave it there.

You're going to love this episode. Diana is a wealth of knowledge and we really get into it. So let's dive into my conversation with Diana Rogers. But first, a word from our sponsors.

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Bobby: Diana Rogers, welcome to the Ruminations Podcast.

Diana: Thanks for having me.

[00:03:33] Bobby: Uh, where do we find you today?

[00:03:36] Diana: I am living outside of Boston and I'm waiting for the renovations to finish up on a small farmstead that I purchased in southern New Hampshire. Um, and right after we bought it, I mean the house was built in the 1700s so we knew there was probably a little work that needed to be done, um, but it turned out that, uh, Most of the beans needed to be, uh, completely shared up.

And so we took the opportunity to then just make it, uh, exactly what we wanted. Um, so it's been a fun process. There is a gigantic barn there. And, uh, I think part of it will be, uh, used for livestock. Um, and then the other part, um, potentially for an art gallery. space, a community art space.

[00:04:33] Bobby: Yeah. So cool. Yeah. Yeah. I think. Later on, we'll get into that this next chapter that you're moving into, but I want to rewind a little bit. Um, you know, folks might not know, but you and I go way back, um, a decade, at least I want to say. Um, we both came from the ancestral health space and got into ag from there.

I remember years ago, you made a very intentional choice. in your trajectory, whereas a lot of other folks just kind of came out and became nutritionists and you know, we're giving nutritional information to folks. You decided to take the hard route and become a registered dietitian and to go to school to get the proper credentials, the highest level credentials you could get.

Can you tell us a little bit about your thinking of why you did that and then what that process was like?

[00:05:25] Diana: Well, actually I started, uh, going through the nutritional therapy associations. program, which was, um, it's still in existence today. It's a great program. It's kind of centered on the Weston A. Price nutritional philosophy. And I, you know, didn't know I was going to make a career change.

I was just more interested in like how to feed myself better, how to, uh, feed my family better. Um, I, uh, a late diagnosed celiac. I didn't find out until I was 26, but it explained why as a kid I was Um, not well and, um, I opened a little nutrition practice and, uh, started seeing some very sick people pretty quickly just sort of realized like, wow, I am not qualified to be seeing all these sick people.

I, uh, you know, the, the type of people that seek out an alternative nutrition, um, uh, Therapist or person are the types of people who've been failed by, you know, the modern medical model. And so I was getting people with, you know, Hashimoto's and, um, you know, very severe obesity, but lots of complications. And, uh,

[00:06:41] Bobby: Mm

[00:06:42] Diana: protection, I decided to become a registered dietician. and I, uh, realized that that would then allow me to have, you know, little more respect in the medical community with working with other doctors, with gastroenterolo gastroenterologists, and also, um, you know, for my writing. So, um, yeah, there was this point, maybe in, uh, 2012 or so, where I saw a lot of people sort of, with not much nutrition education, just launch into these careers. where they were selling tons of books, quitting their day job, making a lot of money.

[00:07:27] Bobby: hmm.

[00:07:28] Diana: but for me, I felt like I really needed to have that, uh, scientific credential in order to feel comfortable moving forward.

[00:07:36] Bobby: And what was that process like going through school? Because the information you're receiving, my understanding is very conventional approach to nutrition and dietetics. And so what was it like receiving that information knowing that you came to the table with a significant amount of knowledge already?

[00:07:58] Diana: Yeah. I mean, I've always been interested in nutrition and I'm really glad that I waited and didn't do this as an undergrad. So my, my first degree is actually in art education. Um, and then I, I had a career, uh, before I went back to school to become this dietician, but I had already gone through sort of this indoctrination, as, uh, someone who believed in, um, Um, you know, a Weston a price type ancestral type way of living where you try to avoid ultra processed foods and try to get back to eating real whole foods and getting most of your nutrition that way. Um, one piece of advice that someone gave me early on was that it's very hard to unlearn something. Um, and so to, to enter the RD education route. Already, um, with a skeptical mind was a much better way than, um, than to have gone in completely green. So I'm just really glad that I waited. Um, and I also had a lot of good friends.

Like by that point I knew Rob Wolf, um, Matt Lalonde, who's here in Boston, uh, at Harvard, uh, knows a ton about nutrition and, um, was extremely helpful to me whenever I had questions. Um, You know, like I learned this today in my nutrition program. Is that right? Is, you know, folic acid is the same as folate.

You know, that's what they tell you. And it's just absolutely not true. So, um, so it was really great to have people that I could ping and ask questions to whenever I got stuck. there was a lot of. classes that, you know, I don't need to know like, uh, a lot of food service type classes because dieticians control the food service at hospitals at, you know, most institutions at, you know, colleges and high schools.

And so, uh, you know, we're tested on things like, you know, what does a number seven scoop? you know, things like that, right? Like, or how many servings can you get out of this can of pineapple or whatever? so that, that was stuff that was irrelevant to me and I wasn't interested in, um, there were also a, most of my classmates were there, um, because their interest in food came from an eating disorder background.

I'd say the majority, almost all. um, know, my interest came from someone who, you know, I was very malnourished as a kid. Everything I ate just went straight through me and I didn't really understand why. you know, I was so sick. And so I came at nutrition wanting to understand the most sort of absorbable, uh, nutrient dense foods possible.

And also, you know, I was married to a farmer, so I was also interested in foods were, um, you know, not only healthy, but also grown in a way that's sustainable. that piece was definitely not addressed at all. Like we had, we had one class on purchasing, right? You know, like institutional purchasing. it was just about going for the lowest bid. It was, there was nothing on, you know, partnering with local farms, visits to farms, nothing on food production at all. Um, was a lot of biochem, a lot of food safety, which is actually really helpful. It's good to know, um, you know, you have to cool that chili before you just put the lid back on the pot and throw it in the refrigerator, which is what a lot of people do. Um, it's

[00:11:39] Bobby: Wait, just, just to pause on that. Why, why is that?

[00:11:42] Diana: because you want the, um, the food to not be in the danger zone temperature, uh, for more than four hours. So if it's. if you, you know, a lot of people will make chili in these enamel cast iron pans, right? Like these sort of like Lodge or La Crusette, know, um, and that chili is like lava.

It's so, so hot and it takes forever for it to cool down. and so if you just put the lid on it and not allow it to cool down more and put it in the refrigerator, um, it's going to stay. Like the next morning, if you were to open it up and make yourself a chili omelet, if you were just scoop into the middle of that chili, it's likely still warm.

[00:12:25] Bobby: Okay.

[00:12:26] Diana: and so the best way to, um, you know, take soups and stews, and, and take them to the, um, safe temperature is to, um, either keep the lid off and keep stirring it, maybe add some ice cubes or to transfer it into smaller containers. I prefer, um, Either metal or glass containers. I don't like to put it straight into plastic.

That's another thing, though. You don't learn, um, in in nutrition school. you know, really, like my education now is such a mix of like. Nutritional Therapy Association, you know, I took bits and pieces from my dietetic education. Lots of Chris Kresser podcasts in there, um, and then like all of the conferences that, that I've been to, all the books I've read. so it's a, it's, yeah, my, my knowledge comes from a whole bunch of different places. I would say one thing that I learned, at, uh, Simmons where I went to school, That they do, that most other schools don't do, but it's a requirement at Simmons to graduate from there, is how to dissect a scientific paper.

[00:13:37] Bobby: Hmm.

[00:13:38] Diana: how to, not only just like who funded it, because it, you know, who funded it is not necessarily gonna make it go to bad science. It's just an interesting piece of Of knowledge. the reality is the pharmaceutical industry and the food industry are the major funders of lots of papers because the ones who are making the funding.

So, you know, just university funding is doesn't mean that it's a high quality paper necessarily. But to look at the methodology of the paper to look at how they they gathered the information. to understand the difference between a cohort study and a randomized control trial. Those types of things are much more valuable and a lot of people just don't know when they're reading a study how to discern whether or not it's high quality.

[00:14:32] Bobby: Do you have any advice that you could give to folks, um, you know, when they pick up a paper in terms of how they can, you know, look at it through a critical lens?

[00:14:41] Diana: Sure, I mean, when it comes to nutrition, um, or, or drug or anything, um, first of all, you want to find out if these results are in actual humans. if they were just observed in mice or rats or pigs, um, or, you know, in a petri dish, right? Like, you want to know that this actually happened with people. Um, secondly, you want to know how many people were in the study.

If there's only six people in the study, and, you know, it's just not that reliable. Um, but understanding also that, uh, especially when it comes to food studies, it's really tricky to do nutrition research and to follow people over a long period of time. Um, and, uh, so most nutrition research is based on food frequency questionnaires.

So, you know, how many burgers did you eat in the last year or last six months or the last two months? You know, it's really hard to remember how many burgers you ate. Um, you might remember how many times you went out for fast food. Um, but people are much less likely, um, going to put down how many sodas they had, how many uh, deep fried apple pies they had, and french fries with those burgers, so, you know, really be critical at how the information was collected.

Food frequency questionnaires are not ideal, um,

[00:16:01] Bobby: My understanding on those food frequency questionnaires is that, uh, people filling them out have a tendency to overestimate the healthy foods that they consumed and underestimate the perceived unhealthy foods. And that doesn't mean what is actually healthy, but what the person believes to be healthy, because they're trying subconsciously trying to position themselves as a better person, as a healthier person.

We all kind of do that in various ways, but it shows up in these food questionnaires when they compare answers of a questionnaire and then go back to somewhere where they can have documented evidence of what the actual meals were. There's a large discrepancy. Is that right? Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:16:46] Diana: So everyone thinks that they're moderate whatever practice that they're doing. So, uh, and it turns out the more you like something, the more you like pizza, or the more you like cookies, the larger amount you are gonna, the larger number or volume are your, you consider is moderate, right?

So it's just like, you know, if I really love Oreos, I might consider five packs of Oreos a week as moderate, right? Um, but it's just like, you know, food, food is, it does have addictive qualities. And, um, you know, to me, what's a moderate amount of, of pasta, very, very little, like, For me, moderate pasta intake is about once a month I might eat some gluten free pasta, but for someone else it might be, you know, five times a week they eat pasta, um, and they consider that moderate, you know, um, it, there's cultural, you know, um, Uh, significance to that.

There's, um, dietary preferences, education levels. and so, uh, know, people are, uh, forget that they are smokers. They forget they drink alcohol when they fill out these things. And so it's just really, uh, tricky, but it's also very expensive to, um, you know, trap people in a metabolic ward for, you know, three months, three years, and you know, feed two populations of people the exact same diet, but one gets beef, fresh grass fed or whatever beef and the other ones get tofu.

Like that's, that's a crazy study that, that wouldn't happen. so when it comes to singular, singular food items like carrots or, uh, nuts or whatever, You know, it's really, really impossible to say, well, you know, walnuts are the ticket, right? But, but people like Walter Willett over at Harvard who, uh, loves these epidemiology studies will say, oh, well, these people who reported eating walnuts had less, you know, incidence of cancer, but it's like, Okay, who are the types of people that eat walnuts on a regular basis?

Are there the types of people who maybe take supplements, shop at health food stores, uh, do lots of yoga and, you know, all these other healthy things. Is it really the walnuts or is it, you know, so you can take any singular food and draw any conclusion you want, um, based on, um, you know, these large data sets that are out there of food frequency questionnaires?

[00:19:31] Bobby: Yeah, and in a lot of these studies They're often looking at correlation but correlation is not necessarily causation and to get to causation That's a very different type of study. So what you see Appearing in the headlines of newspapers and, and blog posts. And from your favorite influencer on Tik TOK or whatever is often an oversimplified synopsis that misses a lot of the nuance and context that was actually there in the study.

[00:19:59] Diana: so a good example of that is vegetarians versus omnivores. Um, so you take a typical American omnivore, probably drinks, um, amount of beer. They eat fried foods. They're, you know, uh, relatively sedentary. I mean, it's a typical American, right? And then you take your typical vegetarian. Well, typical vegetarians tend to, again, shop at health food stores, they, um, are more likely to take supplements.

I'm not saying that that's a good or bad thing, but the people who tend to take supplements tend to work out a lot more. They tend to eat less sugar. Um, interestingly, um, they've looked at just populations who shop at health food stores, therefore, um, so sort of taking into account the lifestyle piece there, they have found no difference in all cause mortality between vegetarians and omnivores. And so, you know, it's much more like what are we doing with our overall life and much less, uh, you know, whether or not somebody happens to eat steak.

[00:21:07] Bobby: And then speak a little bit to, um, absolute versus relative risk. Cause I know that's another piece that often gets overlooked in, um, scientific studies and, and people's interpretations of that data. Mm hmm. Mm

[00:21:23] Diana: um, you know, comes up a lot when we talk about colon cancer and meat, um, and they'll say, well, you know, you have a 20 percent higher chance of getting colon cancer if you eat red meat, right? And really what, what that was is, uh, what they found was an 18 percent higher risk. Of people getting colon cancer of certain, certain ethnic backgrounds.

So not Asians, but, but, uh, Caucasians. but they also had to be eating, it was a certain amount too. It was like five slices of bacon every single day for the whole rest of their life. So it was, it was ultra processed meat and it was, it was quite a bit. Um, but when you look at, um, the absolute risk, so that's like, you know, um, Not, not the relative.

So the percentage above, you know, your, the average or you know, the typical, um, so let's say, um, I believe it's about you. Uh, you know, five in a hundred chance you have a 5% chance of, of dying, of colon cancer or getting colon cancer in your life. your chance went from five to 6%. If you were to eat this five slices of bacon every single day for the whole rest of your life,

[00:22:39] Bobby: hmm.

[00:22:40] Diana: that's not even twice. The risk, 20 percent sounds a lot worse than, uh, you

[00:22:50] Bobby: Yeah.

[00:22:50] Diana: that sounds really scary.

[00:22:51] Bobby: When you hear 20% increased chance of colon cancer, you're thinking, well, if my risk was 5%, now my risk is 25%. And it's like, no, no, no, no. It's 20% of 5%.

[00:23:03] Diana: yes,

[00:23:04] Bobby: so that's,

[00:23:05] Diana: It

[00:23:05] Bobby: yeah. It's uh, basic math and I think, you know, kind of tricky language that is being used to

[00:23:11] Diana: yeah,

[00:23:12] Bobby: certain anti meat biases that exist.

[00:23:16] Diana: exactly. And you know, if we link, if we look at the smoking, um, for example, um, so where meat was only, you know, an 18 percent risk, uh, so not even, not even two times. It's worse. Um, smoking is 30 times increasing your risk. So it was a 300 percent um, increase. So 18 percent versus 300%. So, um, we just have to be very careful when we're looking at, um, how the media interprets these studies because, you know, it, it's, it's. you have to just take it all with a grain of salt.

[00:23:56] Bobby: Well, I think that's the perfect segue into this new paper that you just published. You're the second author on it. Um, the paper is titled Considering the Nutritional Benefits and Health Implications of Red Meat in the Era of Meatless Initiatives. Um, tell us about this paper and, you know, why'd you guys get together and write it?

[00:24:18] Diana: Um, well, I, uh, it came about because I was doing some work with, um, Doug McNichol at, um, Meat and Livestock Australia. And, um, they have been really supportive of my work, really great to work with, and I've helped them out on a few other projects. And, um, I actually proposed to him that they, um, Support me to write this paper.

So, um, so they are the ones who funded the paper. They had no editorial control over the paper, but as someone who's independently Um, fund, right. I don't work at a university, so I can't just, you know, use my salary at university to support my life. Um, uh, MLA, you know, graciously helped support me and also for me to pay, um, Melissa Cavanaugh, who is, uh, really the one who did the heavy lifting on this paper.

So writing for, um, A scientific journal is a very different style of writing than writing a book. Writing a book for me is super easy. It's, you know, I just write like how I talk. I try to make the book very conversational. Uh, I, of course I use a lot of scientific, uh, references, but papers are a whole nother bag of worms that I, you know, is not written, you know, so. So I reached out to Melissa to give me a hand. She's actually an editor at one of the journals rejected us. And, um, but this was an

[00:25:51] Bobby: provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.

[00:26:05] Diana: prolific, uh, scientific writer.

He's, um, out of Belgium. Um, and he is a meat scientist. and then we had Nancy Rodriguez from the University of Connecticut on the paper, too, and she also is extremely prolific in her writings, and she's a nutrition professor at UConn. and so we kind of all got together and, um, really wanted to write a paper explaining how meat can be beneficial. Uh, not only to people who are

[00:26:36] Bobby: Uh, You can see how the wind is blowing through the trees. And now we're going to do a couple of things to make it look a little bit more natural. So I'm going to show you how to make a tree look a little bit more natural. So I'm going to take this cutting edge and I'm going to go down to the top of the tree and I'm going to do a couple of things to make it look

[00:27:05] Diana: when someone comes to you saying that they feel like they need to eat less meat. maybe you could help pump the brakes for a minute and just look at, you know, what they could potentially be losing, um, not only, you know, I think it's very easy for a lot of people to say, well, you know, people in, uh, low income countries, definitely they, they should get, eat more meat, but those of us who live in America or other high income countries, we definitely need to eat less meat because we're all overfed anyway. Um, and, you know, so the purpose of this paper was like actually, you know, Meat is, uh, is so high in nutrition, high in protein and satiating per calorie, per calorie of protein, per calorie of micronutrient um, you know, if we're trying to, uh, help someone lose weight, taking meat off their plate could actually do more harm than good.

[00:28:01] Bobby: Why is that and specifically hone in on that that per calorie piece? I think that's a really important nuance that people don't pay attention to. You know, you'll see infographics online that compares, say, 100 grams of sugar. steak compared to like a hundred grams of tofu and then they compare the nutritional profiles of both.

But you're looking at things on a per calorie basis. So like, what's the importance of doing that?

[00:28:24] Diana: Well, per calorie and per serving, um, those are really important too, because, um, you know, if you want to picture 200 calories of steak is about, you know, a serving of steak, it's about a four and a half ounce serving or so steak, but that same calorie, let's say 200 calories worth of lettuce, you That's like a bowl that you can't even

[00:28:49] Bobby: No one in the history of mankind has ever eaten 200 calories of lettuce alone, I think.

[00:28:55] Diana: Um, and so, uh, so we did want to look at per calorie because that's how things are, uh, compared often, but we also want to look at per serving, um, and just kind of bring, you know, that's another kind of fight that I, you know, if I had more energy, I'd go after is to really, um, You know, look at the USDA standard standardized serving sizes of things and compare foods based on the serving size because, um, you know, a serving size of ketchup is very small.

A serving size of lettuce is, you know, the volume might be big, but the calorie content is small. And then a serving size of steak is is very different than serving size of beans, right? And so if you look at a typical Four ounce piece of steak versus, you know, four ounces of beans. You're gonna find just so much more protein and micronutrients in that steak than you would in the beans.

And in fact, if you're trying to, you know, do beans and rice, which is like the the way to get the right kind of balance of all the different proteins, you're looking at four to five times the protein. The volume calories that you would need to eat in order to get the same nutrients that you can get in a very small package of beef.

And so beef, know, if we're trying to get people to feel full, right, which is protein is the most satiating macronutrient. We want people to feel full and we want them to full on low calories. Then, um, then red meat is actually a great tool for that.

[00:30:41] Bobby: Yeah, there's a table that you have in the paper. I've got it right here in front of me where you compare the calories, the protein, iron, B12, zinc and so much more of different types of foods like, uh, top sirloin, 9010 ground beef, chicken, milk, beans and rice, tofu, eggs. And, you know, you were using the example of, uh, beans.

Uh, so we've got beans, uh, red kidney beans right here. And so calorically, you know, if we compare to say a sirloin steak, you've got 177 calories of steak versus 127 calories of beans, but the protein. So if you say those are about comparable, the protein with the beef. is about 31 grams of protein in that serving.

But for the beans, it's less than nine grams. So there's more than three times as much protein. And then, you know, when you go through and you look at other things like, you know, vitamin B12, for example, there's none in the beans. There's six times as much zinc. Uh, iron is Comparable. But, you know, I think looking at more of these micronutrients and some of the nutrients that are a little more critical for these underserved populations, it's, it's a pretty eye opening, uh, comparison that you've provided here.

[00:32:02] Diana: Yeah. And you know, when we're talking about, you know, groups like healthcare without harm, who are going around, you know, trying to help hospitals reduce the amount of, uh, beef that they're serving in hospitals, to sick people, um, as a dietician, I get really nervous about that because, um, you know, there's, Uh, a much higher protein need for people who are recovering from illnesses and surgeries than even a standard standard population.

So, you know, in the paper, we talk about how the, uh, protein requirements are actually much higher than most people think. and, you know, when you, uh, when you look at some of the pushback comments that we got on the paper, it's so clear that they didn't even read the paper because they're like, well, most people are getting enough protein anyway.

It's like, did you even read of our references and our whole section on, you know, How most people actually aren't getting the protein that they need. Even on a regular basis then especially if we're talking about, Uh, older people who are facing sarcopenia which is, Uh, extremely common. Uh, It's, it's, It's amazing.

And the also the assumptions that meat has more calories than plant based proteins for the amount of protein.

[00:33:31] Bobby: Yeah, which you provide direct evidence that shows it's not,

[00:33:33] Diana: Yeah,

[00:33:34] Bobby: uh, yeah, so here's a quote from one of the rejection comments that you got. It is known that meat contains nutrients, but also deliver far more calories than plant based foods, making it very easy for people to consume more calories than they need, and therefore, exercating the obesity epidemic.

And that's just patently untrue, based on everything that you provided in your review paper.

[00:33:57] Diana: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, as a practicing dietitian, you know, when I was in practice, I was All you need to do to, to help someone kickstart a weight loss program, um, you know, in general, this doesn't work for everybody, but it worked for almost all of the people I saw was just increase their protein intake.

[00:34:17] Bobby: Mm hmm.

[00:34:18] Diana: and you know, for most women, just getting them above 100 grams of protein per day, such a remarkable, um. increase and, um, you know, they're so focused on trying to get that protein that they're just naturally going to eat less. Of the other foods. And you know, that's just what happens. People, you can tell anyone that they need to eat less, right?

And you can lose weight on a variety of different diets that are just less calories. I mean, people have proven that by just eating, you know, 500 calories of Twinkies a day, you can lose weight that way.

[00:34:54] Bobby: Mm hmm.

[00:34:54] Diana: really, really hungry. And so, I think most of us, want to, you know, not be hungry, right?

And so we don't want to keep on going to the fridge, with more people working from home. I mean that fridge is there all the time just looking at us. want to feel satiated and the best way to feel satiated is to eat lots of meat.

[00:35:16] Bobby: And is that because of the protein content of it, or because of the nutrition that you're getting from all the different micronutrients? Mm hmm. Or both.

[00:35:24] Diana: It's probably both, but it's the protein that's really been proven as the most satiating, um, macronutrient. And so, um, but look, we're, you know, if you're really craving, um, you know, foods that might be containing different types of micronutrients and trying to seek them out in your cabinets, you know, you're going to be, mean, beef provides almost all of the micronutrients too, uh, in, in very large quantities.

And so it's got just about everything we need.

[00:35:54] Bobby: Speak a little bit to the RDA's, uh, recommended daily allowances that you see on, you know, food labels. Where do those come from? I know that's something that you definitely, uh, have opinions about.

[00:36:10] Diana: Yeah, and I go really deep into this and in the book Sacred Cow that I wrote with Rob Wolf, um, but the, the RDA for protein. Oh, thank you. plug.

[00:36:20] Bobby: Go buy Diana's book, Anywhere Books Are Sold.

[00:36:23] Diana: Um, the, the RDA for protein, uh, came out of, uh, really looking at, um, how much protein people were eating and then how much nitrogen they were excreting. These are called nitrogen balance studies. but what we've realized many years later is that they're, highly variable, um, depending on the person and also, um, it excluded all the other satiating qualities.

of beef, uh, and other red meats. And so, um, you know, to just say, well, you know, you can only utilize this much, uh, is really also discounting all the other great qualities that beef has. Um, but the RDA was set, uh, for, um, people for men and women at ideal, uh, body weight. So the ideal body weight of a woman in the U.

1. is considered 125 pounds. Um, which is pretty low and

[00:37:25] Bobby: Mm hmm.

[00:37:26] Diana: it was a hundred and I believe it was a hundred and fifty six pounds as the ideal body weight, right?

[00:37:32] Bobby: That's just, I mean, as someone who weighs about 200 pounds, and I would like to think that I'm a fairly healthy individual in terms of, you know, all the athletic pursuits I've done. Throughout my life and, you know, how I've watched my diet, I mean, 156 pounds, I would look like a cancer patient if, if I weighed that little.

And so it would be ridiculous for me to follow the guidelines of that when I'm clearly a different body type. Okay, so

[00:38:26] Diana: actual weights of Americans, you know, we're much higher than that. The average weight of an American woman is 165, and that's based on data from when I was doing the research on sacred cow. It could be higher than that now. And for men, it was 195. And so if you were to just do the simple math on 8 grams per kilogram, you've got almost double what, uh, what the RDAs are set at. but then we also have, you know, anyone with a high stress, anyone with an autoimmune disease, anyone recovering from an injury. Um, anyone in a, in a high growth, uh, period of their life. So pregnant, uh, women and, you know, children, teenagers, uh, and also elderly people who have a harder time digesting protein because we, uh, we lose, uh, the ability to, to properly break it down as we get older, know, all these populations need even more than that.

So, um, and interestingly, they've never really found, uh, an upper limit, like a dangerous upper limit for protein consumption. Um,

[00:39:36] Bobby: You're going to reach satiety far before you reach any sort of, like, safety limit.

[00:39:41] Diana: I know. Um, so, you know, anyway, so, you know, for those people who are listening and they want to know, well, how much meat should I really be eating? You know, think of like a rotisserie chicken per day is like a good starting point. For most people, that's like and that's that's a decent whack of protein. Um, you know, you can look up how much is 30 grams of protein and try to at least at the very minimum, hit that breakfast, lunch and dinner. Um, and I found that people, uh, have the hardest time at breakfast and they might think, Oh, I had a high protein breakfast because I had a couple of eggs, um, with my toast, but an egg only has six grams of protein.

[00:40:22] Bobby: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:40:23] Diana: a lot of eggs you'd have to eat in order to get all the way up. It's five eggs that you'd have to eat in order to get up to. and now with the egg prices, that's like what, you know, 20, 000 worth of eggs in the morning. Um, but so it's like you need eggs and a few sausages. And, uh, but you also will find when you start eating a breakfast like that, uh, that you're fuller and you're like, you have much better concentration in the morning and you might, you know, not need to eat lunch until I often don't eat lunch until like two 30 in the afternoon, because I'm still so full from my breakfast. so, you know, just switching that breakfast can, can really help a lot.

[00:41:07] Bobby: hmm. And that 30 grams of protein per meal. My understanding there is that 30 grams of protein isn't like the, uh, the target that you should try to get close to, but it's actually more of a threshold that when you get At least 30 grams of protein. And actually, you need more as you age. Um, what that does is it triggers protein muscle synthesis.

So allowing you to then put on lean mass, which we know is the most health protective thing that you can do as you know, you get into advanced age is to have lean mass. You want to Build as much lean mass as you can while you're younger, and then hold on to it as long as you can into older age. And to be able to build that lean muscle mass, you need to have protein muscle synthesis, and that requires the 30 grams, you know, at a time.

If you do like 10 grams here, 10 grams here, 10 grams here, and it's spread out, you might not hit that threshold for the protein muscle synthesis. Is that correct?

[00:42:05] Diana: Yeah. And it's also 30 grams from animal source protein. So we

[00:42:10] Bobby: Mm.

[00:42:10] Diana: that, you know, just because butter or beans will say a certain amount of protein per serving, um, it's actually not gonna be utilized by your body the same way. So 30 grams of plant based protein is really not the same, as 30 grams of animal source protein.

[00:42:29] Bobby: Mm hmm. You would need what, like 40 percent more protein if it's coming from a plant derived source? Is that right?

[00:42:35] Diana: You know, I haven't looked at the number lately, so that could be right. It sounds about right, but I couldn't for sure

[00:42:42] Bobby: Yeah, I'm getting that from, uh, Dr. Gabrielle Leon. Um, she's, uh, someone who talks a lot about protein intake and aging. And, um, you know, she's got a lot of, a wealth of information out there. But, um,

Have you seen Alan Savory's Ted Talk? There's a set of before and after photos in that TED Talk that show the transformation that's possible. Um, and this particular set of photos are in Zimbabwe. It's totally barren land. And then just three or four years later, after managing holistically, the grasses are tall, head high perennials.

It's an incredible transformation. And there's a chance that you can go see this in person. We've got an upcoming savory journey to go visit this site. This is the Dimbangombe Conservancy. it's in Victoria Falls, Zimbabwe. It's Alan Savory's home. It's the birthplace of holistic management. It's the first ever savory Hub.

Hub. We're running a trip in January of 2026. We're gonna have a group of about six to 12 people going and. We've teamed up with the Africa Center for Holistic Management and we're giving away one of these slots on the trip for free. If you want to get in on this, we've got a giveaway happening in celebration of Earth Day.

There's three different ways to enter. Basically, you can donate to the Savory Institute, support our global mission regenerating grasslands, or you can support the local efforts that are happening at the Africa Center for Holistic Management. Over there at Dimbangombe, the choice is yours. There's three ways to enter three entries.

Maximum per person. One lucky winner will be drawn to win this trip, which is valued at $4,300. Entries are open now. Get your entries in between now and May 15th when the contest closes and then we'll select the winner. Airfare is not included. Terms and conditions apply. All the details are available on the website, which is savory.global/earth Day giveaway.

That is savory global slash earth dash day dash giveaway. We'll also link it here below the episode. We'll see you in Zim.

[00:44:55] Bobby: you know, going back to RDA, you have an anecdote in your paper. Or maybe it's not even an anecdote. It's a report because this is a review paper that you've done.

You've reviewed other data that is out there in the literature. You didn't conduct an actual study here. So there's different types of peer reviewed

[00:45:12] Diana: hmm.

[00:45:13] Bobby: those that are curious, but there's one where you're talking about, uh, the potential benefits of red meat for older adults. And you've got one with, uh, so older males consuming protein above the RDA.

levels and how that affected. I guess I'll just read it right here. Older males consuming protein above the RDA had greater trunk lean mass than those consuming just the RDA for protein. Um, and then likewise, there was a randomized crossover trial that demonstrated higher protein muscle synthesis following a beef containing meal.

So It basically looks like the RDAs are the bare minimum, and that's if you are a smaller person and you don't have any of these, you're not at an at risk population or a population for whom there are higher nutritional requirements than just day to day, you know, surviving. So moving beyond those RDAs, I mean, with this, the older males consuming twice the RDA is what allowed them to have greater trunk.

lean mass. Were there any other pieces from your paper? Um, any other, um, trials or, uh, pieces of data that stood out to you as notable?

[00:46:31] Diana: You know, I mean, it was I think the most notable thing was how many rejections we got from trying to publish it, to be

[00:46:42] Bobby: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:43] Diana: because

[00:46:43] Bobby: was that process like to get it published?

[00:46:45] Diana: This is not groundbreaking information here, like this is something, you know, it was just positioned in a slightly different way. But this is like just basic stuff to me and to my colleagues, you know, and probably to you. But this is basically Blasphemy in modern nutrition circles to say that meat has any redeeming qualities at all is, uh, to a group of dietitians. You're already asking for it. Like, dietitians are, you know, just, you know, Um, from what I found overall, um, quite anti meat, very pro plant based, um, and, and this comes from that, um, mentality that, you know, everything is good in moderation.

There are, there are no, um, bad foods, but what they mean by no bad foods, they mean all the processed foods you can eat and all those sugary sodas, as long as you eat, eat them in moderation, but it's fine to have, you know, dessert every day. yet, um, you shouldn't eat red meat. It's like so many contradictions all at once. Um,

[00:47:57] Bobby: Where does all, where does all of that come from? Like, where does it stem from initially? Like if you go back and you look at the history of nutritional science and where this anti meat bias speak to the origins of that and why it's so prevalent.

[00:48:12] Diana: Okay, uh, geez, I even had forgotten that I did a whole section in my book about this and a very deep dive into the Seventh day Adventist church, um, as I was doing research for my book. And this is something that my, um, my film producer, James Connelly, really helped me. learn about too. But if you look at, you know, how did dieticians even start?

It was, uh, the Seventh day Adventist church and they had, um, associated meat with, um, and, and other foods too, spicy things, um, with, uh, sexuality. And so if you abstained from meat and spices, and I think it was coffee and tea and chocolate and, um, anything other than salt and white

[00:49:02] Bobby: Any type of indulgence was kind of perceived as sinful and needing to be eliminated.

[00:49:08] Diana: And there's still that kind of, um, energy happening now. But the, but the first dietitians were actually Seventh day Adventists. And same with nursing. Um, came from the Seventh day Adventist Church, and, um, you know, a lot of the position papers even today that are written by the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, uh, are people who are either religious. Um, or ethical vegetarians. Um, and so, you know, the, the position paper on vegetarian diets just so happened to be written by people who were vegetarians for either ethical or, or religious reasons. so, you know, um, there's a lot of, you know, Uh, systemic, uh, ingrained sort of, uh, bias against the idea of eating animals that it goes way back to, you know, basically the Victorian era.

Yeah.

[00:50:07] Bobby: And then how does that play out in terms of where the research comes from and the prominent publications and pundits that are out there advocating for reductions in meat, you know, say, for example, the eat lancet diet. Which is, you know, uh, an incredibly popular one, um, at the, on the global stage and informing a lot of global conversations, uh, surrounding reductions in meat intake.

Um, where does an organization like the Eat Lancet fall into this conversation?

[00:50:39] Diana: I mean, I don't know much about any religious, um, Frederick would probably be a great person for you to talk to about that because he knows a lot about Eatland Set, um, and the founders of it and, and why they're so anti meat. Um. So I don't, I don't know if there's a, or maybe you, you know, uh, are you familiar at all with, with a religious

[00:51:04] Bobby: Off the top of my head, I'm not as well versed in it. I was hoping that maybe you had some up to date

[00:51:11] Diana: not

[00:51:12] Bobby: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:51:13] Diana: there's always been this sort of like, I eat this and I'm a better person because I eat this. Cause there was also Um, you know, when, um, vegetarianism started to have its heyday in England is right when, you know, we started having a lot of voyages to the Far East and they were coming back with these, like, ideas of enlightenment, um, and, and by the way, they don't eat meat there.

And so there was this idea that you are better than other people if you, if you are, you're a more spiritual person if you don't eat meat. Um, uh, and there was actually some sects of, uh, of Christianity that were also playing on this as well. Um, it's a really fascinating,

[00:52:01] Bobby: hmm.

[00:52:02] Diana: discussion. Um, I mean, even, you know, this part got cut out of the book, but even, um, in Nazi Germany, Hitler used the idea that, uh, he, he proclaimed to be a vegetarian and that as a way to have a spiritual kind of, um, hold on his followers.

Uh, and it rose him to be, um, much higher than any politician could be because he used, uh, his vegetarianism as a way of separating himself as a, as, as being spiritually enlightened.

[00:52:41] Bobby: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:52:45] Diana: we didn't want that to be like the big takeaway of the book, right? We didn't want people to like walk away saying, well, she's saying that, you know, vegetarians are Nazis.

That's not what I'm saying. Um, but, uh, yeah. You know, definitely this idea that you're better because you don't eat flesh has been something that's been in in many different cultures for a long time. And it's something still that a lot of people are grappling with today. And, you know, it's I think we see this a lot in countries that have less kind of organized religion, right?

They're looking for a sense of community and they're looking for a way to feel good about themselves. And, um, there's very little we can control in our lives, but we can control the food we eat. so to take a stance around the types of food I'm willing to eat and the types of ag practices that I want to support, um, Um, is a way of controlling myself and also aligning myself with other people that believe the same kinds of things.

And so, you know, we see that a lot with, you know, Regen movement as well, right? It gives a sense of community and, and there's a way of eating with all of that. Um, but as a, as a dietitian, I've always had a very difficult time with, uh, you know, the folks that are saying, well, you should only eat regenerative meat or don't eat meat, right?

And this has gotten me into a ton of trouble. Um, but I, you know, I'm, I'm a supporter of, of obviously of the Savory Institute and, and, uh, regenerative practices, but, and I'm a dietician and a mother and care deeply about people who are low income and don't have access to regen meat. I believe that, uh, beef is one of the most nutrient dense foods. that people can get regardless of how it's produced. And so, uh, you know, I, I do believe you can be a supporter of organic and regenerative good ag practices and have, um, a reverence for people who can't access that type of food and, uh, just need basic nutrition.

[00:54:58] Bobby: Yeah, essentially you're saying don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough. And for some of these marginalized communities or communities who have different nutritional needs, keeping the threshold as you need to have the highest quality possible meat, you know, 100 percent grass fed 100 percent organic regeneratively raised.

If you can't have that, then don't eat meat at all. That's essentially condemning that person to additional nutritional problems via protein, you know, insufficient protein intake, insufficient micronutrient intake and beyond.

[00:55:34] Diana: Yeah, and again, I've gotten in a lot of arguments with people who are not educated in nutrition who are very passionate about regenerative agriculture and they'll say, well, they can just eat beans and rice. And if, if I don't eat meat that much, but I eat beans and rice, if I can't get regen meat and like, that's a great, that's a, that's great for you, but that you should not be telling, you know, people who don't have that same level of access that that needs to be their decision.

Yeah. Um, so, uh, beans and rice are not a suitable substitute for beef.

[00:56:12] Bobby: Well, and that's specific. I think that's clear when you get into the paper and you look at the micronutrient. Profile when you're looking at things like heme, iron, zinc, B12. You also touch on vitamin a little bit, but I think that's kind of left out of the analysis because you're looking specifically at red meat and vitamin a is something that comes more from liver and skin.

Um,

[00:56:32] Diana: hmm. Mm

[00:56:33] Bobby: don't we actually touch on some of those micronutrients a little bit? You know, iron, zinc, B12. Why are they so important and why is there so much focus around those in this paper? Okay. How many of you have seen the law, the law? Um, Maybe not the law. Yeah. Maybe not the law. Um, Um, Um, How many of you have heard of the, the, the law?

[00:57:05] Diana: getting plenty and plenty of carbohydrates. So that would be like starches, you know, pasta and breads and things like that. and then there are the micronutrients and those are things like, um, vitamins and minerals and, you know, different, um, other compounds in foods. so there are certain micronutrients that we are very concerned about, uh, that the human population overall is lacking.

So things like vitamin D, um, B12, um, iron. These are things that the overall population, um, you know, there, there's very big concerns that the overall population is not getting enough of these. So they're called nutrients of concern or micronutrients concern. Um, and beef happens to have a lot of, uh, the answer to the, the, the nutrients in question here that the, that we're worried that people aren't getting. so I can go through a few of them. So iron. Is something that is, uh, you know, really rich. in, in animal source foods, specifically in liver, but also in beef. it's absolutely critical for the growth period for brain growth and physical growth and for energy. Um, and it is something that, um, you know, when kids don't have it, they don't grow properly and their brains don't grow properly. so for, so for vegan and vegetarian kids in particular, it is, um, It's really a concern, um, and, you know, it's, it's a concern, you know, for major countries for their, like, their GDP because they need their children to be eating enough iron. Um, and, you know, they've looked at, I think there was a study done in India where, like a typical eight year old boy couldn't physically eat enough lentils in order to meet his iron requirement for the day.

Um, and so just really, really difficult to, uh, get the iron that you need from spinach, for example, you know, it's just mounds and mounds and mounds of spinach you'd need to get and it's as accessible. So, you know, for for every nutrient, um, where there's a, uh, better or worse form. So, um, Some nutrients, uh, we need to like convert in our body if we get it in the plant based form, but they're always in the right form from an animal source food.

So you always can't go wrong eating the animal of that nutrient. Vitamin A is that way. So in plants, we have beta carotene and our bodies need to convert it and about half the population can't convert it properly. Um, but it's in the proper retinol vitamin A form in animal source foods. Uh, same thing with irons.

We have heme iron in animal source foods and then non heme in plant based foods and our bodies prefer the heme iron. Um, oh,

[01:00:11] Bobby: As it relates to iron, you were mentioning cognitive performance, which is a piece that I think a lot of folks don't really recognize. They think about some of these conversations more as it relates to growth and and things of that nature. But there's one piece that you talk about in the section about the importance of red meat for childhood.

Um, there was a study done. Uh in kenya among children aged 6 to 14 years old where they were supplemented with a beef based snack And it didn't result in any gains in height compared to the isocaloric snack group That was from milk or fat, but what they did see is there was there was additional, uh, greater gain in lean mass, which is great.

But the, the notable piece that stood out to me was that those that had the beef based snack outperformed all other groups on measures of cognitive performance. So that cognitive performance that you're seeing Based on, you know, a comparison and, and this was two animal products. This was comparing a milk-based snack to a beef based snack.

The beef outperformed and showed a sign a significant, statistically significant difference in terms of cognitive performance that I think was eyeopening for me.

[01:01:25] Diana: yeah, that study in particular is the only randomized control trial we know about that is comparing animal source foods to, it was milk and then another group was just more calories. So they had just, you know, extra calories from what they were already eating. But it's interesting that the milk group did worse. Then even the extra calories group. And I think it's because milk inhibits iron absorption is, is the issue there. Uh, so you're not supposed to really consume dairy when you're trying to get your iron, uh, met for the day because will block that. Um, but, uh, what you see in many, uh, African schools is that they're realizing that kids need more protein and they're supplementing little cartons of milk.

[01:02:14] Bobby: Hmm.

[01:02:15] Diana: And that's a problem. What

[01:02:17] Bobby: Yeah.

[01:02:17] Diana: is actual meat. and it wasn't just cognitive too, it was behavioral scores as well.

[01:02:23] Bobby: Hmm.

[01:02:24] Diana: so they, they were looking at, you know, physical, uh, behavioral and cognitive. And, uh, the meat group did the best in all three.

[01:02:32] Bobby: So we've talked a little bit about protein. We've talked about iron. What about zinc? What's the importance of zinc?

[01:02:38] Diana: Zinc is really important for wound healing and for immune function. And, um, it's a nutrient that, um, a lot of people just aren't getting enough of. And so, we need that. Um, in the paper, we also talk about B12, which is, um, something that you only find in animal sourced foods. So zinc you can get, um, I believe it's, uh, pepitas or sesame seeds is another really good way to get your zinc. Um, and certainly shellfish is great.

[01:03:07] Bobby: Oysters. Yeah.

[01:03:09] Diana: oysters are great for zinc and B12, honestly. Um, so like shellfish is, is also a great source of a lot of these micronutrients as well. B12 is, uh, is my biggest concern because it is a nutrient that you could only get from animal source foods. There are no vegetarian alternatives, um, that are, uh, equivalent to B12. B12 is required for our mental health. And, um, basic, uh, neurological kind of, you know, building blocks of your brain when you're a baby, um, also, uh, you know, For serotonin and dopamine production, uh, you know, through the teenage years and adulthood. Uh, so what we see in B12 deficiency is, um, you know, sometimes permanent brain damage in babies. Um, we've even seen some deaths from B12 deficiency and, uh, and in adults, what we see, you know, with, you know, most kids are not raised as vegetarians or vegans, but they might choose to go through a period in their twenties. Um, but what you'll see with B 12 deficiency is, is just really bad depression.

[01:04:22] Bobby: In the paper, you are also looking at not just the, the evidence supporting red, you know, making, you're not just making an argument for the fact that red meat is a, you know, nutrient dense and critical source of food for these various different populations. You also take a look at the strength of the evidence that's often used by those that are claiming we need to.

What can you say about the evidence that's commonly used against me?

[01:04:54] Diana: Yeah, um, I mean, it goes back to what you and I were talking about earlier with, um, you know, just these, uh, food frequency questionnaires and just how unreliable they can be. Um, and how they're not really showing cause, just associations, but there, there really is no strong evidence, um, at all to, uh, vilify the nutritional aspects of beef. and a lot of people will then move the goalposts and they'll say, yeah, but it's bad for the environment and it's wrong to kill animals. And, you know, we definitely had that pushback on this paper, um, but in order to get into the environmental consequences of factory farming and then also, um, the, you know, benefits of regenerative act, like that's a whole nother paper that I couldn't address in this first paper.

[01:05:49] Bobby: Mhm. That's why you wrote the book Sacred Cow.

[01:05:52] Diana: Yeah. Because they're completely different, um, arguments. And, uh, you know, I, I, I first think we need to decide whether or not a food is even important before we start talking about whether or not it is, uh, sustainable to produce it. Right? Um, so like, is it even worth having this argument in the first place?

Is this an important food? You know, like we could be, you know, you know, arguing like crazy about, uh, I don't know, peanut M& Ms. But if like, we don't require them as a nutrient, then, you know, it's not even worth going down the road is how sustainable are they to make? And is it ethical to be eating peanut M& Ms?

I don't know. Um, so the environmental argument, um, know, is nuanced and is complicated. Um, And is completely separate from the nutritional argument. Mm

[01:06:53] Bobby: see the, that shifting of the goalposts often. And I think that's something to, to watch out for, um, you know, to our listeners, whenever you're in a conversation with someone, if, you know, it's a nutritional conversation and you make a point. And then someone jumps over to, you know, the, the moral and ethical aspect of it.

Usually that's indicative that that person doesn't have a good response to the evidence or the argument that you brought up. And they're trying to, you know, just shift the argument for their own benefit.

[01:07:23] Diana: hmm. Exactly.

[01:07:26] Bobby: Speaking of common, uh, tactics used by. Anti meat advocates. I mean, that's something that I think you've kind of been on the front lines of For for many years now, you know, the first line of defense I would say is, you know Diana Rogers on Instagram or pick your favorite social media platform and you've got the the PETA Vegan anti meat advocates just going crazy on all of your content What are some of the the common arguments that you hear?

nutritionally speaking against Eating meat and how do you respond to them and I could give examples of some of them if you want me to Pretend

[01:08:11] Diana: think in general, the nutrition argument's pretty weak, to be honest. Uh, and, you know, you can get everything you need from plants. I get everything I need from plants. I'm fine because I've been eating this way for X number of years. And if I can do it, anyone can do it. And, um, you know, generally I think there are, uh, lots of different diets that people can survive on for a period of time. Um, but what you're not seeing is this person was vegan since infancy. Right? They're probably a healthy, robust person in their 20s who then went vegan for a period of time. Um, uh, but what we do know is that 85 percent of those who attempt a vegan diet give it up within three months. and it's usually for a health reason. uh, there's never been an example of a vegan human population throughout all of civilization. you know, there's a reason why our brains got really big and it was because of B12, um, our ability to cook food and, uh, and be able to break down all that nutrition. so, you know, the nutritional arguments are, you know, I just don't find them to be very strong.

I mean, most, even vegan and vegetarian dietitians will admit that it is not an optimal diet. So I find that really interesting, um, because it's just science and, um, you know, you're kind of taking the emotion out of it. It's when people start getting emotional about what we're doing. their belief system is and how you need to conform to it.

Or you're a bad person. That's when, um, people start getting much more sort of, uh, irrational.

[01:10:09] Bobby: yeah, it's you know, i'm reminded of the fact that in buddhism One of the tenets is to you know, avoid the killing of other animals and so a lot of buddhists forego meat Um, you know trying to be a good buddhist the dalai lama eats meat, you know, he is very open about that and so, you know, he's the main man.

Um, and then you go back and look at people like, um, Ram Dass, the, you know, kind of the spiritual guru of the counterculture movement in the sixties who came out of Harvard with Tim Leary. And he suffered a stroke later in life. And, and then, you know, I believe re adopted eating meat due to his health concerns and his guru Maharaji, um, was not a healthy individual.

You know, he was, uh, you know, his guru in India who ate, you know, fully vegetarian diet and Maharaji died of a, uh, diabetic coma. So there, I think our There's a lot more to these conversations than I think people realize, uh, you know, the claim to be morally superior and, um, you know, oh, I have a deathless diet, um, I think is something that you hear a lot and I know we're kind of deviating from that.

The topic of, of what's in the paper that we're here to talk about today. But yeah, what do you think about folks that try to claim that moral superiority because their diet doesn't include any death?

[01:11:45] Diana: Um, you know, I mean, we have a whole section on that also, um, and intent versus, you know, harm. I think, uh, you know, Rob and I. Um, I've actually thought a lot about like, which is the most laudable argument and it's definitely the least harm. I want to cause the least amount of harm like that. I do too. Right? Um, and if you want to try to cause the least amount of harm, one large ruminant animal, that was improving soil health, sequestering carbon and increasing biodiversity that can produce 500 pounds of meat that I can then, you know, feed my family on for an entire year. least harm. Um, and, uh, you know, there's a lot of, uh, chemicals and, and, and, uh, ecosystem annihilation involved in row cropping.

And, um, I

[01:12:51] Bobby: I like that term ecosystem annihilation. I hadn't heard that before.

[01:12:56] Diana: Well, people just don't realize that a field. Isn't just naturally, know, even if it's a meadow, it still is a biodiverse place compared to a cornfield or a wheat field. And so you have to completely, you know, eliminate every single living thing that was there in order to whatever monocrop you're going to do in order to, you know, have your, have your stuff there.

So, um, you know, there, The cycles of life are life and death. And, um, again, least harm is a principle that I fully, uh, with and have thought deeply about. And, you know, I mean, part of the reason why I was never a very good vegetarian is because I actually needed to eat the meat. Like I, as someone who had celiac disease was, uh, undiagnosed until my mid twenties. When I did try to be a vegetarian in my years and I actually just couldn't because I was starving. I was so hungry all the time and I just knew that I had to have meat as part of that because it was actually something that I could digest and when I tried to Follow diets that didn't have meat.

I would get just sicker and sicker. And so You know trying to be a good steward Uh, through my diet is something that I've really thought about and, and I also get there are certain animals that I have a harder time eating than, um,

[01:14:34] Bobby: Like what?

[01:14:35] Diana: like the idea of eating a guinea pig to me is not really great. Um, I have a harder time like eating rabbits.

[01:14:43] Bobby: Mm hmm.

[01:14:44] Diana: so like I get, you know, when people are like, Oh, this feels wrong to be eating this, you know, I think, you know, if I didn't grow up eating eggs, I would think it's pretty weird to eat an egg, know, so, uh, you know, it's all like what also your condition to

[01:15:03] Bobby: Yeah. Like there's cultures that eat horse meat and, you know, things that, you know, we in American culture are, you know, very turned off by.

[01:15:12] Diana: Yeah, actually, horse is funny. I don't, and I was a big horseback rider. I still am, you know, ride horses and love horses. But horse to me is not that as weird. Um, canned fish to me is awesome, but to other people, it's just pet food. Right. So I, you know, it's just, um, you know, people are quirky and, and a lot of it has to do with what you were raised with too.

[01:15:36] Bobby: I had a question that I wanted to ask earlier when you were talking about the. Nutritional requirements or, or looking at, um, nutrient density per calorie, um, you know, I've been around the, the health and wellness space and the athletic space for a while. And there are a variety of influencers or advocates for, let's say, a vegan diet who might be bodybuilders or ultra endurance athletes.

And basically they're, um, What their claim is, is, hey, look at me, I am a vegan athlete, a very high performing athlete, and look at me, I can be really jacked or, or super fit in my athletic pursuit on a vegan diet. And what I was thinking is, these are individuals for whom their calorie expenditure is much higher than your everyday person who has, you know, who, who, puts out far fewer calories.

And so because of these influencers or these athletes, because they're consuming, say four times more calories than the average person that kind of makes up for the fact that their food might have less nutrient density and less bioavailability, they're meeting their minimum needs. Mainly because of the sheer volume of food that they are taking in.

Not because quality of the food is superior in any way, shape, or form. They're just making up for it on a quantity basis.

[01:17:07] Diana:: definitely. And it's really hard to get all your nutritional needs from a whole foods vegan diet without going over in calories. so if, if, uh, if calorie mindfulness is something that you're trying to do, if, if, uh, If watching your, um, you know, your calorie balance, um, compared to your expenditure, uh, is something, um, that's important, which it is to most people, um, then trying to get as much nutrition from low calorie foods as possible, uh, you know, it's meat and vegetables. That's the way to do it.

[01:17:54] Bobby: I want to acknowledge that there are likely listeners, because I know there are followers of Savory's work, who support what we're doing in terms of holistic plan grazing and regenerating grasslands, but they are also vegetarian and or vegan. And so I want to be mindful of these folks and make sure it doesn't come across that.

We're just bashing individuals who choose to follow this type of diet more, just having a conversation about some of the realities and challenges that may exist if you do make this type of dietary choice. Um, what would you say to those folks who follow a vegetarian or vegan diet in terms of your recommendations for what might allow them to live a more healthful life and, you know, some of the things that they may want to look out for or choices that they may want to make within that context of a vegetarian or vegan diet

[01:18:47] Diana:: That's a good question. I remember one time I was in Boulder and I was at a conference, a regenerative conference. There was a lot of veg, vegans and vegetarians there. And I got up and I said, you know, it, you know, That is a personal choice. You are free to make that choice and I fully support your freedom to make whatever choice you want for yourself and your family. And you should be supporting the work the Savory Institute is doing because, um, you don't have to eat the meat that's coming off the land if you don't want to individually, but people are still going to eat meat. Uh, and it should be, celebrated. Uh, The practices that the Savory Institute espouses. So, um, Both things can happen.

There can be two truths at the same time. They, there can be their individual truth that they don't feel comfortable eating meat, and other people are going to be eating meat. And if they are, we need more regenerative meat in order for, um, the best possible meat to happen, and, and factory farming is, is a big industry that exists and provides affordable meat that fills in the gaps because not everything is regenerative.

So, so that's another truth that can happen at the same time too.

[01:20:01] Bobby: From a nutritional perspective, though, for someone who is, you know, they are committed to following their let's say vegetarian diet.

sort of,

[01:20:09] Diana:: to,

[01:20:09] Bobby: yeah, what sort of supplementation or other sorts of dietary things do you think would help someone in that context?

[01:20:15] Diana:: Yeah. Sorry. I got on a tangent in my own head there. Um,

[01:20:18] Bobby: all right.

[01:20:19] Diana:: uh, well, you know, any kind of tiredness, I've definitely recommend getting some lab work done on your ferritin levels to see where your iron's at. If you have low ferritin levels, then, um, pulling in, um, an iron supplement or, or maybe even, you know, swallow, swallowing some desiccated liver pills. Um, I would say that's the best way to get your iron. Um, B12 is something that doesn't necessarily show up in your blood until you are really deficient because B12 is not like a really in your blood very much. Um, so by the time you're showing that you are B12 deficient on your blood work, you are very, very deficient. so, uh, you know, trying to pull in an animal source B12 supplement is going to be the healthiest way to get B12. There are B12 analogs out there that are vegetarian, but they often, uh, require, Uh, you'd even need more B12. So that's a, it's a dangerous one. Um, vitamin D is also like, you're not going to find that from plant sources.

It's from the sunlight and from the, from the, the fat in, in animals. Um, so getting a D supplement is also really, really important. So, um, uh, vitamin A is another one that's important for eyesight and for skin health. And, um, you know, you, it's really difficult for some populations, uh, depends on if you have the gene or not, but, um, for some populations to convert retinol to vitamin A, it can be very difficult.

So, um, uh, you know, just eating carrots and sweet potatoes might not be enough for you. So, um, and then, and then there's also like. gut health and age, like someone who, uh, does not have a very robust, digestive system. Like I, I don't do well with a lot of raw vegetables and a lot of people don't do well with tons and tons of raw vegetables.

And so salads for me are like, The worst thing I could eat. Um, I, when I eat vegetables, they're cooked. and so a lot of people with IBS think, Oh, gosh, I need to start eating healthy. I better start eating more salads, which is actually the worst thing that they could be doing. so, uh, take a look at your digestion.

Um, you should not be bloated and in pain all the time. That's not a natural state for people. Um, even though, uh, you know, I lived like that for a very long time before I was diagnosed with celiac. I thought everyone had searing pain multiple times a day in their in their guts. Um, so that's, that's not a normal thing.

And I think a lot of people, especially when they're and eating a lot of raw food that they're, they actually have a ton of pain that they're not acknowledging.

[01:23:18] Bobby: Well, you know, I think it's, it should be clear to folks that, you know, a thing or two about healthy, nutrient dense food and where it comes from. And a lot of the nuanced conversation that often gets overlooked, um, you are actually kind of transitioning out of this field of work and moving into a new chapter of your life.

So why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

[01:23:46] Diana:: Yeah. Um, you know, I, started feeling like I was repetitive that, you know, there wasn't like that much new for me really to be, um, explaining after the release of sacred cow, um, global food justice alliance was a nonprofit that I, um, spun out of the film, the sacred cow. And, uh, you know, fundraising is really challenging.

And especially if you are trying to raise funds for a topic that not a lot of people understand, um, that might, you know, they might be okay with regenerative agriculture, but they're not okay with the idea that, you know, any meat is going to be better than no meat for at risk kids. Right. And so there were very few people that really, truly understood it. Um, and so, uh, you know, I just got to the point where, um, you know, doing all the fundraising, running a nonprofit and, uh, trying to do all the social media outreach was just overwhelming and a lot. And I was like, do I actually need to be doing this anymore? I don't think I. I don't really need to do this anymore, so, um,

[01:25:01] Bobby: I feel like you've paid your dues over the years. You've contributed, you've contributed quite a lot over the years to this movement.

[01:25:07] Diana: Yeah. Um, so I just kind of, um, have decided to stop. Um, and this paper was like something that I was trying to get published for a long time. And, um, so it's great that it came out and I'm happy to do this podcast, but, you know, I'm just not, um, really that interested anymore in the, in the meat debate. And, um, you know, if people have questions. is there. The film is there. I made a lot of really great connections in the, in the region, ag space, uh, that I'm excited about. And I got to travel to a really, um, large number of wonderful, cool places. but, uh, my first love is, Art and, uh, teaching others art. And, um, it's something that, uh, I wasn't really allowed to pay much, um, attention to in my own life, uh, while I was a mom and also trying to crank out all these projects. so now that my kids are both in college and I, uh, I have a little more time on my hands, I'm diving back into the arts. So I just bought a small farm in Southern New Hampshire and, um, working on, uh, renovating it now. And, um, be diving more into, uh, ceramics and painting and hopefully growing in our community around art eventually, um, out of that space.

And, uh, and probably some food as well. Um, just on a very small scale. and I could be happier.

[01:26:40] Bobby: That's amazing. Well, you know, I'll say very well deserved. Um, your contributions to the space have, you know, they go very far and they're very detailed and helpful. And, you know, whether it's the books or the cookbooks or the, the film Sacred Cow, which I believe you can get on Amazon Prime Video, is that where you go to watch?

[01:27:03] Diana:: also posted it on YouTube for free, um, so they can just go to YouTube and just watch it there.

[01:27:10] Bobby: So as you step back from public life and being on the front lines of advocating for, you know, common sense, uh, discussions surrounding animal sourced foods, for people that are still hungry for this type of information and, you know, staying up to date with the latest in research, are there any, folks that you would point to as helpful resources, uh, for, for people to follow along for, um, you know, kind of common sense, nutritional content.

[01:27:42] Diana:: Uh, I mean, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is really great when it comes to meat, and I, I can pass the baton to her for, for anything nutrition related when it, when it comes to that. Um, uh, real food cooking. I, I would push people in the direction of, uh, Olivia Robertson Moe, who was my assistant, uh, during, um, the last, uh, couple of years at Sustainable Dish, and she has, um, Gosh, I believe it's revolve nutrition on Instagram.

Um, I'll get you that link. Um,

[01:28:18] Bobby: We'll put it all in the show notes.

[01:28:20] Diana:: revolve health, maybe, um, college nutritionist is Rachel. Paul is another person that I think is really great for anyone who's looking to have a better relationship with food. And, you know, she's very, uh, a big believer in protein and, you know, um, learning what's the right food for your body. Um, you know, environmentally and ethically. Uh, I'm not sure who is really, you know, taking the lead in that space anymore. Um, Rob is, is equally, um, kind of disengaged like, like I am. Um, so I hope people figure it out. I, um, I, uh, you know, please eat meat. Please feed your kids meat and, uh, and, and read my book.

And, um, just passing, I'm passing the baton to, uh, the next set of people that want to take it on.

[01:29:24] Bobby: As you pass that baton, do you have any advice for the next generation of real food advocates?

[01:29:33] Diana:: Um, I mean, I've always been a big believer in like authenticity and, uh, integrity. And, um, you know, I think there's a lot of people that are pushing a lot of supplements and other products that are, um, just making them money. And, uh, I think it's a really tricky balance to be able to support yourself and at the same time, hold onto your values.

So, um, It's, it's a tricky balance and to, you know, to try to hold on to, uh, what you feel is right while you're doing it.

[01:30:13] Bobby: Yeah, maintain that authenticity as hard as you can, don't lose sight of it. Wonderful. Well, as you retreat into a more artistic, uh, slower, simpler life up there in New Hampshire, um, you know, normally we would ask, you know, where should folks find you online? If they want to learn more, it sounds like maybe there as many options, but would you like.

Or anyone in any direction as we, uh, you know, wrap this up.

[01:30:41] Diana:: Um, yeah, I mean, they can go to my website, sustainable dish. com. It now only has two pages. I, I just, I didn't even try to transfer everything over. I just like hit delete on my old website. Um, but I do have a newsletter list, um, that, you know, I, I may be doing some kind of, you know, creative retreats in the future or something.

I'm not sure. I'm just sort of taking a sabbatical right now and, um, developing my own skills as an artist right now. And, um, you know, but regen ag may be part of my art in the future. I'm not really sure. So, um, people can stay in touch that way. And also on Instagram at sustainable dish.

[01:31:27] Bobby: Okay, wonderful. Well, sustainable dish. com and sustainable dish on instagram. Diana Rogers. Thank you for all that you've done advocating for common sense animal sourced foods and For introducing me to the savory institute so many years ago and wish you the best in this next chapter of life

[01:31:49] Diana:: Thank you so much.

[01:31:50] Bobby: All right.

Thanks

[01:31:53] Bobby: This episode was edited by Claire Everson and her theme music was composed and performed by Travis McNamara. Ruminations is a production of the Savory Institute, the Savory Foundation, and Land to Market. If you like this episode, please consider leaving us a five star review on Apple Podcast and subscribing to our YouTube channel where you can find video versions of all episodes plus other content.

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