Opening the Gate for A New Generation of Cowgirls

Bobby: Welcome to Ruminations. I'm your host, Bobby Gill, and today's guest is, I'm just going to say, one of the most genuine, thoughtful, and badass ranchers that I know. Beth Robinette is a fourth generation cattle rancher and second generation holistic management educator at the Lazy R Ranch, tucked into the channeled scablands just outside of Spokane, Washington, in the U.

[00:00:27] Bobby: S. There, she and her dad Maurice run what they call a thoughtfully grazed grass fed beef operation that's been practicing holistic management since the nineties. Beth has taught and studied holistic management in Spain, Turkey, Mexico, and throughout the U S. In addition to her work running the Lazy R Ranch, she currently leads the educational programs at UVE.

That's the savory hub covering the Intermountain West region of Washington State, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, and Northern California. At UVE, she runs a variety of both in person and online courses on grazing planning, land planning, financial planning, ecological monitoring, and a lot more. Beth is also the co founder of New Cowgirl Camp, a five day immersive program for women by women that teaches, quote, everything you wanted to know about ranching, but didn't know who to ask.

She's also the co founder of LINC Foods, a worker and farmer owned co op food hub in Spokane, where she currently sits on the board. And she's also part of the Women in Ranching Circle two. What I'm sure will become soon clear to you while you're listening to this episode is that Beth is a force to be reckoned with.

She's breaking down barriers in ag, she's championing women in underrepresented voices, and she's weaving together business, ecology, and equity to create resilience not just in our food systems, but in our land management systems and beyond. There's a lot to this episode. It is a very rich conversation, wide ranging.

Beth is an incredibly thoughtful and experienced person who knows what she's talking about. And I think she has a lot to offer. So I'm just going to leave it there, but with that, let's jump into my conversation with Beth Robinette.

This episode is brought to you by Savory's growing community of regenerating members, listeners like you who care about real solutions for our global grasslands. Over the past decade, the Savory Institute has helped restore more than 100 million acres through holistic planned grazing, creating productive and resilient landscapes where fertile soils lead to healthy food and thriving communities.

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[00:03:19] Bobby: Beth Robinette, welcome to the show.

[00:03:22] Beth: Hi, thanks for having me, Bobby. It's great to be here.

[00:03:25] Bobby: Well, why don't you start with letting the folks know who you are, where are you from, tell us a little bit about your operation and what makes it unique.

[00:03:37] Beth: Uh, yeah. So I am the fourth generation of my family to live here on the Lazy R Ranch. Um, my great grandparents came, came here in 1937 they established a small dairy. and they ran that up and really they cows up through the sixties. Um, but around 1950, my grandpa Um, made the transition to beef cattle because he had grown up milking, uh, cows by hand and had decided that that was enough of that, um, which I always feel so grateful for because dairying is like the hardest job on, on earth.

Oh my gosh. I

[00:04:20] Bobby: Seriously.

[00:04:21] Beth: hang in there. Mad respect to all the dairy men and women and other people of the world. Um, uh, yeah. And then my dad. my dad moved away from the ranch for a little bit, moved to Butte, Montana, met my mom. came back to the ranch in 1980 uh, started a firewood company, the Miami beach firewood company with a couple hippie friends of theirs.

[00:04:50] Bobby: Why Miami beach?

[00:04:52] Beth: it's just like a really goofy in cheek name. Cause obviously like Miami beach is not a place you would cut firewood and we're not located in Miami. Um, Yeah,

[00:05:06] Bobby: making sure. Okay.

[00:05:08] Beth: that's, um, that's definitely my dad's sense of humor in a nutshell right there. Um, uh, yeah, so they cut firewood with some other hippie friends of theirs and, um, and saved up some, um, Some money to buy some, uh, some cows, some heifers.

And the plan was my dad was going to run those heifers for the summer and fall and, and, and sell them in the fall and kind of just flip them for a little extra Um, and I think that was 1981 and the bottom just completely fell out of the market that year. So my dad ended up buying a bull instead and bred all those heifers and kept him.

And we've basically been in the cow calf business, uh, since then. Um, But it was very conventionally managed, uh, like just kind of doing whatever the industry standard was. And, you know, we calved in January, we used all kinds of like antibiotics and steroids and, um, know, sold calves in the fall when they were weaned. Um, and my dad stuck with that for, for about 15 years, which is about how long I've, I've been here now. Um, but. You know, then he was, you know, my parents had two children and they like needed to actually have an income, you know, like supported, as my dad says, like expenses just kept rising for some reason, don't

[00:06:32] Bobby: Yup. I've got a second kid on the way. I can a hundred percent relate to that. Wow. Mm hmm.

[00:06:43] Beth: so my dad was, was kind of at a point where he was considering leaving ranching and, you know, he had had a professional career before. Um, he has a master's degree in sociology. and yeah, he was basically thinking about going and doing something a little more stable and lucrative. Um, and, you know, At that time, a neighbor of ours, uh, Jerry Rouse, who actually used to be, um, he worked for NRCS and was, uh, was the president of society for range management for a while. Um, told my dad about this training opportunity that was coming up, through Washington State University and the Kellogg Foundation that was to train a bunch of, um, a bunch of people in holistic management and to basically study with Alan Savory.

Jerry. My dad had heard a little bit about holistic management, but like not enough to really know anything about what it even meant. Um, but he was sort of intrigued by the idea and he ended up getting accepted into this two year program, and studying holistic management and a bunch of other, um, that program also really focused on training people in consensus facilitation and some other kind of like soft interpersonal skills, which I think really kind of rounded out and complimented the, the holistic management framework and definitely has. Influenced my own like practice and understanding of holistic management. and yeah, so that all that, that trans, I think my dad like really got, um, intellectually hooked on the, on the ideas as he kind of started getting more and more, um, the, into the training. Um, and then also as we started implementing the practices, like he just saw, you know, I think it's, it was probably really much more dramatic for him because I didn't really have an awareness of things being any other way, but like when he first implemented like planned grazing, like really just saw an explosion of biodiversity, a big improvement in, um, just the amount of forage that we were growing, uh, doing some other things like, you know, changing our calving cycle to be more in alignment with nature, just a bunch of things that improved quality of life. That seemed to like really help the land, um, that helped us be in a more financially stable position. And so my dad just really kind of got like re energized around ranching through holistic management. Um, and I was like eight, nine, 10 years old, um, around the time. I remember going to like the, the back in the day, the Covira coalition, like when it was just like a camp out in Albuquerque, like going as a little kid and, um, hanging out.

Uh, and yeah, I was basically old enough, old enough to carry some pigtail posts and, uh, and a spool of hot wire around and built and be put to work building cross fence. So that was kind of the. paradigm of management that I grew up with was like, of course you move the cows every day, and that's just kind of like part of, part of the daily work, so I did not have to do like any kind of big paradigm shift, like a lot of people when they're introduced to holistic management, they're like unlearning certain concepts, and then like having to like adapt to new things, and I sort of had this baseline like, oh, well, just, here's how we do things.

Here's how plant grazing works. Um, and you know, I had my own kind of detour journey, journey, um, to the ranch, which, you know, I did not leave for very, I just left long enough to go to school, but, um, I did not plan to like in agriculture. I kind of thought like maybe at some point I'll come back and live here.

Like I liked it here. Um, but like when I was growing up, I was a theater kid. That I was. not like thinking of myself as a future farmer of America or like, like those were the kids that like beat my friends up at school. Like they were, I was not like my social group. Um, so yeah, I just never conceived of myself in that way.

Um, but towards the end of high school, I, I read Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser. That, that book was really influential in just kind of like opening my eyes to what the industrial. meat supply chain looked like, um, and like of what was happening to the animals that we were raising. And also like the people, like the human component of that, like how people in slaughterhouses are treated and in like fast food, um, you know, working environments, just like these really dehumanizing conditions that felt like not. in alignment with like the pretty idealistic, honestly, like world. I had this very lovely bucolic childhood, you know, where I just got to like run around in pastures and be around animals and have like just a, a very high degree of safety and freedom, like in the world and it's like security in the world that I navigated. and so there were like a lot of experiences that happened around high school that like sort of shattered my concept of that. I was like, Oh, like the world's actually a way more. Um, messed up place than like this little, like idealistic corner of it that I grew up in.

[00:12:12] Bobby: Do you think that that shattering of the worldview is because you grew up more in the holistic management camp and so you were seeing it through the lens of, you know, kind of the right way to do it or a better way to do it. And then here you are being exposed to. Some of the ugliness that perhaps you were fortunate that you didn't have to live through because your dad, you know, jumped into holistic management so early

[00:12:39] Beth: a lot of it was like, I was probably just way less conscious of any of it than that. Cause it was just like the default world that I lived in. It wasn't like, you know, you don't like closely interrogate just like the everyday world around you. It's not until you like kind of have other stuff to contrast to that you're like, why does this work this way?

Why are things the way that they are? Um, Yeah, but I kind of, I, so like I fast food nation was really influential. And then I, um, I ended up going to college at Western Washington university. I went to Fairhaven college, which is like a college within the university. That's like super hippie, dippy design your own degree.

There's a, There's no grades. You just like write a self evaluation at the end of every course, which was totally up my app, like up my alley. I was very burnt out on traditional education. Um, by the time I was done in high school, I was always a very high achieving student, but I also had like undiagnosed ADHD and like just a lot of things about school did not make sense me.

Um, and just seemed dumb. It was like, why? Like, I don't know. So I was looking for a very, like, a different type of educational experience. The first class that I took, um, at Fairhaven College was a 15 credit class that was all about food systems. It was co taught by three professors, and it was from, uh, an ecology lens, a social justice lens, and then a critical and reflective inquiry, like a critical writing class, basically. Um, and so, but it was all through, um, All through the lens of food. Um, so was like my first, my first quarter at college, I just like dove into food systems, we read omnivores dilemma as like one of the foundational texts for that class and that book just like blew my mind open when I was 18 years old, I was like, Oh, this is all the stuff that I've been thinking about and like, not quite been able to articulate about this, like dissonance between what we're doing, like what I know we're doing on our ranch, but then also what's happening, like. After the farm gate to those animals and like, how did this whole system works and, and like, what would an alternative to it look like, um, and yeah, so I ended up just really getting like sucked into food systems as like my area of academic interest. Um, and decided pretty, pretty early on that I wanted to come back to the ranch and manage the ranch. and then because of like family dynamic issues, I ended up doing that immediately after college because my grandma had advanced dementia and she needed a caretaker. Um, so I ended up moving home right after school and, uh, and kind of diving into managing things alongside my dad, which has been a crazy but I think we're 15 years in, we're starting to figure out how to work together.

[00:15:32] Bobby: when, when you were initially, I mean, so you were, all right, so you were a theater geek in high school. And I say that with the utmost, utmost respect because I was as well. Um, I w I wasn't on the stage, but I was like building the sets and I ran the soundboard and stuff like that.

[00:15:51] Beth: black.

[00:15:52] Bobby: I was the man in black.

Yes. Um, So that and then you get exposed to food systems, you ranch now and you are very, you know, deep in this world, but were there other career tracks that you thought you were going to go down? Did you have any other vision for your life?

[00:16:11] Beth: Uh, I don't, I think that I kind of settled on that so early on, um, but I didn't explore a lot of other things. I think, honestly, I probably would have gone into education and, unsurprisingly, that's also what I do now. You know, I do education around, um, sustainable agriculture. So, it's been a pretty natural progression, but I do, I love teaching, um, and I love, um, Um, I love share, like, I just love sharing the knowledge and like demystifying all of this stuff because I think that, um, you know, working alongside animals of any species, but just like human beings, like being in close relationship with other species and, um, like both animal and non animal, like really paying attention to plants, like, Being in a, like, in a rhythm with the seasons.

Like, these are such foundational things to having an enjoyable human experience. I, I think, like, maybe I'm highly biased because I like that stuff, but, um. You know, my own little like root cause analysis of like, why is society so messed up as I just think like, so part of it anyway, is that like, so many people are living completely disconnected from the things that like ground us to the earth and like, complete those feedback loops that help us like live in reciprocity with the earth. and.

[00:17:44] Bobby: about, I think about that specific piece a lot, the disconnect, um, because so much of what we get out of life is from relationships. There's, you know, relationships with the land, there's relationships with our community, and, you know, our friends and family, and then there's the relationship with ourselves, and I feel like in modern society, we're disconnected from all three of those in a variety of different ways, and when we're looking to heal relationships and, you know, get into right relationship for the sake of everything that flows around us.

It requires addressing all three of those pieces. Like you can't just focus on the landscape without actually touching on community or, you know, working on yourself. All those pieces are needed. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:18:42] Beth: been one of the biggest learnings for me through this whole thing as someone who kind of came into this work from a very My passion was always around the ecology. Like I, I love the outdoors and I love plants and I love birds. And I, um, you know, and I also like, I also do really, really like my cows, but like, it's, that's more of a means to an end for me, like, like that's the way that we pay the bills and the way that we can like influence ecosystem processes when we need to. But like, I just love this ecosystem. And. I always felt like a bit misanthropic, like could kind of do without the human systems piece of all, like, if that all just kind of went away, that would be fine with me. and yet within like sustainability and within my sustainability education, it's always like talking about the triple bottom line. Um, and I kind of struggled to connect with the human piece of it. I was always like, okay, I get how you need to make money and I totally understand why you need to make like ecology a priority. Cause that's like. The thing that I love. And I, and it just was like, okay, but like, I just don't quite understand how this social, like how not even that I didn't think it was important, it was just like I just don't quite get, I don't, I didn't have as deep of understanding of how to fit that in.

And like the more, the more food systems work I've done, the more I've like you know, just tried to start a company and run a business and Um, have employees and work with my dad. Like the more I've come to understand that like the social issues and the interpersonal stuff and like the internal regulation skills are just as important, if not more important, because it all comes from like the inside out, like you can only do as good a work as you are, like as what you have on the inside of you. like if you're whole and you're full and you're taking care of yourself, like you have abundance to give to other people and to give to the land and like to be in that right relationship. But like if you're always operating at like a personal deficit. people around you are always operating a deficit.

Like you can't, can't get past that. Um, so I've just become more and more passionate about the, the social side of things, both like internally, I'm totally addicted to therapy and, and, and self improvement and, and, you know, Um, and maybe that's just because, like, I'm middle aged now, and that's the stuff that you care about as you start to get older, but, like, I, I love thinking about how to be a better person in the world, and, like, how to have better relationships with people, and how to, like, Not just like, like how to have better friendships and then how to live in a, in like a more whole community.

And then like, you know, just going out and out and out.

[00:21:32] Bobby: I want to get into new cowgirl camp. But what you just said that you're addicted to therapy and figuring out how you can become a better person. I wanna double click on that and explore that a little bit. So what are you learning about yours or what have you learned about yourself and what are you working on?

Like what is the the formula for for Beth Robinette that makes her tick?

[00:21:55] Beth: God. We're getting real deep. Okay. Well, um, a lot of my, I mean, a lot of my work is just about like that kind of that, Thing I just talked, touched on which is like how, how do you show up in the world as a person who like deeply, deeply cares about thing, like things outside of themselves? To the point where like it's very easy for me to sacrifice my own time or energy or like personal reserves of whatever kind. Um, I have very, like, porous boundaries. Definitely working on boundaries. Um, but I'm just a gi I'm just like a I'm a giving person. I'm a caretaking person. I love taking care of other people and other things. And like, how do you hold that? Cause that's like not a thing I want to change about myself.

That's a thing I love about myself. How do you hold that and at the same time like, make sure that you are are taking care of yourself first so that you are in a place of abundance to be able to give to other people. Um, yeah, that's the, that's definitely like the thing that I'm, uh, on right now.

And that's all, I think that's probably a continuous, uh, piece for me personally.

[00:23:14] Bobby: What does self care look like for you?

[00:23:18] Beth: Hmm. Um, I have an amazing group of friends. I have like the greatest girlfriends on earth. I'm just kidding. So thankful for them. Uh, the first like 10 plus years that I moved back to the ranch, I was in a lot of ways really socially isolated. cause it's, I kind of exist in this weird space where like, I don't, I don't really fit into a lot of like the typical ranching community because I don't follow the same practices. And also like, I'm a weird hippie. I just heard the term green neck for the first time. I love that. It's like a red neck, but like a hippie red neck.

[00:24:01] Bobby: Oh, amazing.

[00:24:02] Beth: yeah. And I'm like, I'm a green neck.

[00:24:04] Bobby: Greennecks represent.

[00:24:06] Beth: um, yeah. So I kind of like fall in this weird place where it's like, okay, well, I have like, if I have friends in agriculture, they tend to be more like small, diversified vegetable farmers. Um, you know, I have like friendly relations with like neighbor ranchers, but they're not necessarily like gonna. sit down and watch RuPaul's Drag Race with me or whatever, like the things I want to do. Um, uh, and yeah, I think I just had this, like, I had a really hard transition when I came back here finding, like, I had town, I would have town friends, but then, like, they're not really into, like, riding horses and coming and helping me move cows on the weekend or, um, now I feel I have actually, like, kind of found this community of People that, like, live in that, in the intersection of those bubbles, and they all, like, live within 15 minutes of me, 15 20 minutes of me.

Um, so, I, I Uh, I think just like having that for a lot of, for a, for a very long time, Instagram was like my lifeline, uh, to other people like that. Cause like, you know, if you go to these con like to, to, um, to like the regenerate conference or, um, know, these spaces where people gather, it's easy to find that community.

And then it's like, okay, I got to pack it all the social interaction in the next three days. Cause I'm not going to talk to another person who understands me. For 360 Um, and so like I have, I have a great online community too. Like a lot of amazing friends that I've been able to stay in touch with virtually yourself included Bobby Gil.

[00:25:48] Bobby: We get to see each other in person every once in a while.

[00:25:51] Beth: Yeah. And I do get to like, you know, I really treasure those moments where I get to like actually see people face to face, but it is just such a freaking delight right now for me to have, girlfriends that I can call up and I'm like, you want to go riding or like, you want to. Uh, you know, you want to smoke pot and make fun of men, like this is, you know, like, like just having like, like my kind of group of, uh, of people that are, um, yeah, I think it is my apocalypse crew, but yeah, so hanging out with those guys is a big part of my self care. Um, uh, well, this time, this time of year baths, I, I try to take a bath every day if I can, I love a hot soak. Thank you. And in the summer, my equivalent of that is having a little, um, like having a little time in my hammock in the morning for my coffee. yeah, those are my most important things. Just like taking a moment to slow down and, and, um, and be alone, especially cause I'm a person who like does kind of tend to give my energy out pretty freely.

It's really good for me to have that. that recharge time.

[00:27:05] Bobby: Yeah, I hear you. And it's like when you get on an airplane, they say you got to put on your own oxygen mask first before you can help others.

[00:27:11] Beth: cliche, but it's very true.

[00:27:13] Bobby: It works. Well, on the theme of you and, you know, your groups of women that you're caring for and bringing together, you've developed this program called New Cowgirl Camp.

Uh, how many years have you been running it now?

[00:27:29] Beth: Uh, this will be our eighth year.

[00:27:31] Bobby: Wow. Yeah. So, so tell us about New Cowgirl Camp. Where, what is it and how did it come into existence?

[00:27:39] Beth: So actually, you know, I, I was, um, organization that hosts New Cowgirl Camp, um, is Roots of Resilience, which is a nonprofit organization that actually came out of that training that my dad did in the nineties. It was basically like a management group from that training. And they had a Tuesday morning conference call. They have maintained since like 1996. Now, it's a monthly and it's on Wednesdays. So things have drifted a little bit. But like they have just stayed in touch this group of like five or six holistic management practitioners. And we were one of the first, we actually were the first hub in the United States. So we applied for that first cohort of hubs with the Savory Institute, that initiative kind of launched. Met so many amazing people, made so many cool friends through the hub network. Um, I'm super glad to be working for hub again, which I guess we'll get to now, but I work for a V now, which is also a savory hub. Um, but it just kind of wasn't like for where the organization was at and where the hub network was at, it just wasn't quite a good fit. So we. Ended up after, after a few years, like deciding not to keep maintaining our hub status. Um, and also to just think about like, I think, especially at that time, because it was like very new, there was sort of a lot of one size fits all solutions to how like curriculum was being rolled out. Um, And, you know, I also, like I went to business school, I have an MBA and so I kind of had this like instinctive, like, okay, but we don't really know who our customer, like, who are we trying to give these trainings to? And like, who, um, who are we, like, what is the value that we are delivering and to whom? And I never felt like that was quite, it wasn't like, we never kind of had internal clarity. We were like, we can teach everyone about holistic management and train everyone about everything. And it's applicable to everything, which it totally is. Um, but after we decided to leave the hub network, um, we wanted to just like, kind of focus in on like, what are we uniquely positioned to do really well in our context, right?

Which is holistic management one on one. and one of the things that we had kind of like resonated around was, We'd gotten pretty tired of trying to get existing land managers to change their practices. this group of folks had, had done field days and trainings for 20 years off and on. And, you know, people come to the field day and they're like, you know, they listen politely.

And then you always get to the, you know, this will never work at my place because dot, dot, dot. And then people would go off and then like not really implement the practices. And after like 20 years of doing that, it was like, what do we really have to show for all of the field days and the trainings?

It's like, I mean, people are like passively interested, but nobody's actually like doing the stuff. And I contrasted that to like anytime I, and there's like almost this like built in resistance to the paradigm shift. Right. Um, Anytime I explained like my philosophy management to like any of my friends that were not in agriculture and I was like, yeah, it's just about like paying attention to ecosystem processes and looking at animals as like a tool to influence those things and really monitoring closely, like being adaptive in your management, um, really prioritizing biodiversity and energy flow and nutrient cycling and, and water cycling. Um, And it was like, Oh yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And there's like no resistance at all. So, so it was like, okay, I, and then like me being who I am, like, I just don't, not the guy to convince like the old white rancher dude that he should do something different. And especially, you know, now that I have 15 years of experience under my belt, I think I have a little more cred, but when I was a young woman, in that space, they did not want to hear it from me.

Like I was not, I was like a novelty and perhaps like intriguing, but not compelling. so

[00:32:09] Bobby: I mean, how did you approach those sort of scenarios? Did you try to prove your worth or was it one of those acknowledging I'm not going to be able to change this person nor is it my place to, you know, I told my story and that's enough?

[00:32:24] Beth: well, it's kind of, it's kind of both, right? Like you have to figure out. Like, I gotta buy hay from somebody, right? Like, you have to figure out how to exist in the world. You can't just, like, opt out because, like, yeah, they're just logistical things that you need done that you gotta talk to the old white guy to do, right? Um, so the formula that I found to break through that was, one, always dropped that I was a fourth generation rancher in my introduction because that immediately gave me Like, fourth gen like, that does mean something. If you

[00:33:00] Bobby: Yeah.

[00:33:02] Beth: Not a lot of ranches make it past that. Like that's kind of like three or four is usually where it peters out. So like, there's just as a little bit of like, you

[00:33:12] Bobby: Yeah, you got some status. You have some street cred that you can use right there.

[00:33:15] Beth: that always helped. And then, um, this is annoying, but like, I'm very good at mental math and men just seem to be bamboozled by that. So I would usually try. To like do some very fast multiplication in my head or something like, you know, and, and they would be like, wow,

[00:33:37] Bobby: Is this,

[00:33:38] Beth: hard.

And

[00:33:38] Bobby: is this you going up to someone and be like, quick, ask me what, uh, 12 times 27 is. And then you just do that? Or are you trying to like calculate animal days per acre, per inch of rain and getting into those?

[00:33:51] Beth: about, you know, like how many bales you can fit on a flatbed and like, you know, or like how many bales to a ton or something like that, like just something dumb and easy, you know, that you could be like, I can do math, girls can do math. Um, uh, but, you know, if you kind of like pull out a little trick like that, um, Which works better than using big words, that tends to be alienating, but the math, they find, um, sorry, that was really,

[00:34:18] Bobby: Hey, no, it's fine.

[00:34:22] Beth: that was a little catty, but,

[00:34:23] Bobby: Sometimes you gotta go a little rainman to impress some people.

[00:34:26] Beth: I didn't mean to say that, like, whatever, that, you know, there's lots of intellectual people in lots of places, um, and I don't think it's fair to, like, say that ranchers are dumb.

I don't think that they are at

[00:34:37] Bobby: I don't think that's what you were saying. I think you were saying a method to impress people was to show that you have a strong command of math. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:45] Beth: um, so that, that was kind of like the icebreaker and then I could usually kind of get, get through, but, and, and, and the reason why I tell that, tell that story specifically is like, as I started thinking about how do you train new people, um, in this stuff, because those were the people that wanted to learn from me that were interested in what I had to say. like, well, okay. What if you don't have those, like, what if you can't drop the fourth generation, cred. Like, how do you break into these spaces and start to get some of this like knowledge? Because I have learned a ton of stuff from old white dudes, like, you know, these like crusty old rancher types, they know a lot of stuff. and so I, I just kind of like started, I think organically building out a space where people could get access to that information without like, if they didn't have those like pry bars. Yes. So. Um, so we launched New Cowgirl Camp. The idea was to do a five day kind of intensive training that was the introduction to holistic management, um, and the planning processes alongside some practical farming skills, like How to, how to build fence.

Um, when do you need to call the vet? What can you do yourself? I co teach it with, um, Sandra Matheson, who is a longtime holistic management practitioner, um, and also a retired veterinarian. So that's, that's cool to kind of be able to bring in the, the animal husbandry piece of it. Um, and the other, my other co facilitator, Alex Machado, um, was a tradeswoman for many years and a welder and as a first generation agrarian, whereas Sandy and I are both. multi generation. Um, and Alex came to the second cowgirl camp, the second year that we did it. Um, and then we've since kind of brought her on as a facilitator just because as we got further, further into it, I realized how important it was, um, to have some facilitation that reflected the people that were coming through our training.

Because it's like Sandy and I can come up, can stand up there with our inherited land and our inherited cattle and, and tell you all day long about how to be a good land manager. But when you're talking to a bunch of people that are trying to start from scratch, I, there just were like places where like, we could, I can't answer questions about, about like what it's like to search for land.

And, and so bringing in, bringing Alex in, and she also has more of a small room in it. Focus, Alec, uh, Sandy and I are, are Cowan and Sandy has yaks too. She's a yak lady. so like, I, I just think like it, it creates the, the facilitation team is really kind of a nice balance. Um, because we can bring that generational knowledge and also kind of like connected to the realities of what first generation agrarians are experiencing. And yeah, we started doing that in 2017, um, and we had really no expectation about what it was going to be like, or if people would even come, but we had like sort of a small ragtag group, I think there were eight people in that first camp. Um, and it just. Was magic. Like it, it was, um, it was so cool to see the camaraderie that built between people, the kind of learning that took place when people could kind of like just let their guard down. Um, because it can be as a, as a woman, it can be really intimidating to go into male dominated spaces, male dominated professions. And, um, You know, and not know what you're doing and, and that you're probably going to like have an experience where someone is condescending to you, which really sucks when you're trying to learn something, like it is not helpful. and just like creating an environment that was like safe for people to get introduced to this world and this work. Um, you know, and I don't mean safe in like a snowflakey way, but I mean, just like when people feel like somatically safe in their bodies. Your mind can get creative. Your mind can be like in a state of play, which is when we learn. Um, whereas if you're always trying to like code switch or think about like how to make sure that you don't expose any vulnerabilities, like it just takes a certain amount of your mental bandwidth, the way that you can't put towards learning. And so that's what I've found in these like all female cohorts, um, or all women cohorts, um, is just that it. It creates a space where people feel, um, feel safe to just be like open to the learning. I'll never forget like one of the first, it was the first or second year we were doing a field walk with all the campers and, um, and we had to cross a barbed wire fence. And that's something I have been doing since I could walk and never thought about it. Um, you know, if you're short, you go between the wires and once you get tall enough, you can go over the top of the wires. And that's how you know you're a grown up. But, you know, I was walking with all of these people and they were like, I was like, does everybody know how to go across the barbed wire fence?

And like, probably were like, I have no idea. And I was like, okay, let's just practice. Like, here's a time where like, no guy is watching you like, awkwardly. You know? Heave yourself over the top and like unstick your jeans when you get a barb in the middle. Um, and you know like that was just like this great moment where it was like this is a small thing but like if you've never had a chance to do it or practice these kind of things and you're always kind of like self conscious about it it's just hard to like get over that. so that's the magic that happens at cowgirl camp. Plus we just put all of this like amazing information about holistic management, about ecosystem processes, ecological monitoring, planned grazing, holistic financial planning, holistic land planning. We cram all All of it into five days, of course, it's like at an introductory level, um, but we're trying to just give people like the full suite of things that they should think about before they get started or it, and it's not, it is introductory based, but we have people from kind of all along the journey that, that come, we've had a sixth generation rancher from Arizona come, you know, she was in a position where like she did not know anything about holistic management and she also had. Never been in, like, an all women environment around this kind of stuff. So she got value out of, you know, even though she didn't need to be told how to, like, pull a calf, necessarily. Um, you know, she got other value out of it. So, there's, there's a lot. Really something in there for everyone, uh, I think.

And then the other cool thing is just to see like the, the cohesion amongst the cohort that happens because, yeah, as much as like, as much as we're there to, to share knowledge, like everyone that comes is so incredible and so amazing. and bring so many skill sets because people come from all different walks of life. Um, it's really cool to just kind of see the bonds that, that, that grow between people.

[00:42:27] Bobby: I can only imagine. Um, I mean, I've heard such amazing testimonials from all kinds of folks that have gone through. Uh, so I would love to come and be a fly on the wall as like token guy who's allowed on the periphery. Maybe,

[00:42:42] Beth: You and

[00:42:43] Bobby: at some point. Yeah. So, Aside from the technical skills and the knowledge that you're providing to everyone in the camp, is there like something deeper you're trying to get people to learn or unlearn?

[00:43:03] Beth: Um,

[00:43:04] Bobby: And if it's just about, I mean, if it's more about the technical skills and the knowledge, I mean, that is also a perfectly,

[00:43:10] Beth: yeah, no,

[00:43:11] Bobby: you know, suitable answer as well.

[00:43:15] Beth: Sorry, I got an old dog that needs help on the couch. Okay.

[00:43:17] Bobby: Oh, yeah.

[00:43:18] Beth: cause there, there is, there is something a lot deeper. Um, and I think it's just around like the, it's, it's around the community building piece. It's the camaraderie. It's like, yes, the technical skills are important, but also the, like, just the experience of being like, if you want to do something really bad and you've never, and like, nobody else in your life understands why you want to do this crazy thing.

Yeah. And then you get to be in an environment where for five days, you're just with other people that want to do that crazy thing. And they just encourage the heck out of you and tell you how good you're going to be and how successful, like, there's just a, yeah, there's like an internal boost that people get from, from getting to just like be encouraged by other people and know that they're not alone, uh, because like the nature of this work can be very isolating. Um, and I think it's a huge barrier. Like, how do we. How do we create space for new people in rural spaces that are often very, very insular and don't have a ton of diversity within them, um, a lot of the time. and yet we know that, that like, the need for new land managers is very high. Like, there is, huge succession crisis that is happening around agriculture in this country that like, I don't, I don't feel like is being talked enough about at all.

But like in the next 20 years, so much land is going to change hands. and you know, it's already been happening, but you just see, like, Um, you know, family, like the Waltons and the Gates Foundation and the Mormon Church and like these, like very few, very powerful, um, entities, and then like just foreign, foreign national corporations, um, you know, buying up more and more farmland as this, you know, we're seeing this farm model start to peter out, like, I think that's kind of reached its apex.

Yeah. Um, at a certain, like after a certain number of generations, you either have too many cousins to split things up amongst to have a viable business or you have enough intergenerational trauma around managing the family business that people don't want to do it anymore. And it's very rare the family that doesn't have one or two or both of those things happening in it. So I, I think that's And then like price of land has just skyrocketed, right? Like the difference between my grandpa buying this ranch in 1950 and my ability to buy it today is, you know, it, it can't even be a conversation. Whereas my grandpa got a loan from a relative for 2, 000 and bought this place. You know, like

[00:46:13] Bobby: Jesus Christ.

[00:46:14] Beth: is not acceptable me or to anyone else, um, that, you know, that wants to get into this work. So like, we're just on the precipice of this major, major problem where we're not going to have human beings connected to the land anymore, like even worse than it already is. But like, people need to live on the land.

Human beings are part of the environment. We have to steward land. Um, like corporations are not going to steward land, people, human beings steward land. Um, and, yeah, so we have to find some pipeline that helps, because there are people out there that want to do this work, that are so hungry. Like, Urban environments are full of them. Uh, like the more I have opened cowgirl camp, I like tried to search out these people with cowgirl camp, the more they keep coming. Like, I think people really are super hungry to do this work and it's so needed, so important.

[00:47:19] Bobby: And to your point about, we need more people getting into ag, we need more people taking care of the land, and there is a hunger in, you know, more urbanites. Uh, crowds, I would, you know, say that's my particular story is typical nine to five desk job, you know, checking all the boxes of what makes a successful career.

You get benefits, yada, yada. And it's just soul sucking. And you're like, there's gotta be something more to life than this. And I think what a lot of people are discovering is that something having to do with the land, something having to do with creating a better planet and like having an active role in it instead of just, Oh, I'm going to change my purchasing behavior in this small way, or I'll use paper straws over here or, you know, whatever it is that, you know, is the latest fad of like, this is the right thing to do.

Um, You know, to get into ag in whatever way, whether it's managing land or contributing, whatever it is, your skillset that you can offer. I think it's a tremendous opportunity for folks when they can find how their unique genius, if you will, fits in to, you know, the existing models that are out there and figuring out where they can slot themselves in.

[00:48:39] Beth: Right. And where I think there's kind of like the, you know, there's missing deal flow there, right? Like there's people that want to do it and then there's land out there, but like, what are the models that actually help

[00:48:51] Bobby: Yeah. Those Tetris pieces don't necessarily line up.

[00:48:55] Beth: Exactly. Like, there's, there's a huge learning curve, right? Like, you are going to fail a lot in the first

[00:49:01] Bobby: Mm hmm.

[00:49:02] Beth: of years of doing this.

And so, like, how do we, and I think that just like this, the kind of rugged individualist farming model has in a lot of ways made it worse. Um, I, like, I have no desire to run this place in the way that my dad did. It worked for him, but like, it is a lot of being alone and taking care of stuff alone. Yeah. And I'm like, that does not sound fun to me.

That does not meet my quality of life needs. Like I want to have a freaking party of people around and I want to be like playing music and working on projects. And, um, and I want to be able to go on vacation or go camping and not drive my family insane because I'm so stressed the whole time about being gone, which was definitely how my family vacations went when I was a kid. if we had them at all. Um, so. Yeah, I think that there need, there like need to be new models that kind of like help, uh, help people through that transition, but I, I don't have the answer for that. I just see that huge gap in the system right now.

Have you seen Alan Savory's Ted Talk? There's a set of before and after photos in that TED Talk that show the transformation that's possible. Um, and this particular set of photos are in Zimbabwe. It's totally barren land. And then just three or four years later, after managing holistically, the grasses are tall, head high perennials.

It's an incredible transformation. And there's a chance that you can go see this in person. We've got an upcoming savory journey to go visit this site. This is the Dimbangombe Conservancy. it's in Victoria Falls, Zimbabwe. It's Alan Savory's home. It's the birthplace of holistic management. It's the first ever savory Hub.

Hub. We're running a trip in January of 2026. We're gonna have a group of about six to 12 people going and. We've teamed up with the Africa Center for Holistic Management and we're giving away one of these slots on the trip for free. If you want to get in on this, we've got a giveaway happening in celebration of Earth Day.

There's three different ways to enter. Basically, you can donate to the Savory Institute, support our global mission regenerating grasslands, or you can support the local efforts that are happening at the Africa Center for Holistic Management. Over there at Dimbangombe, the choice is yours. There's three ways to enter three entries.

Maximum per person. One lucky winner will be drawn to win this trip, which is valued at $4,300. Entries are open now. Get your entries in between now and May 15th when the contest closes and then we'll select the winner. Airfare is not included. Terms and conditions apply. All the details are available on the website, which is savory.global/earth Day giveaway.

That is savory global slash earth dash day dash giveaway. We'll also link it here below the episode. We'll see you in Zim.

[00:52:10] Bobby: Aside from new cowgirl camp, which, you know, if folks are up in the Pacific Northwest near you, or if they have the ability to come travel to you, that's an option. But for people say, someone is listening to this in Australia or Argentina or Spain, or, you know, wherever around the world, and they're looking for something similar.

Are there other groups, you know, of, or do you have recommendations or guidance that you would provide to folks that are seeking this level of deeper connection? And community.

[00:52:43] Beth: That's a really good question. Um, I do, I do know that there, I mean, there just seems to be more and more stuff out there all the time. Like I see, I see more trainings targeted towards women. Um, Um, people of color, like kind of just creating more of these like affinity spaces where people can just focus on the learning. Um, and, yeah, I would say like, Hmm, what's my advice to people? Uh, I think just start, like, start somewhere, start, like, start doing something, like have. I, I've found that, like, like, I had no idea what cowgirl camp would become when we started doing it. We were just sort of like, okay, we have this idea.

We're going to try it. We'll see who shows up. And, and it just seems to be like this generative wave. Like, like I've, this whole community has come out of it that I get to be part of now. And that kind of like, you know, the ranch is sort of a nexus for, even though a lot of the people that come to our trainings are from all over, like not physically close to me at all, but like. They all kind of have this common thread of being in this, this space and, um, and having this common experience and, um, and obviously I get to kind of stay connected. I'm the little spider in the middle that gets to stay connected to all of them. so yeah, that's what I've found. I've just, just kind of tried to, and, and part of that I think is because like, I like building community and I like hosting events.

So this is a thing that like, for me is like, this is an easy lift. Um, I think people do need to kind of find their own, like you said earlier, like what their own unique genius. Like if, if you're not a person that loves and having people in your house, then maybe my advice of like, start having, just start having events or start getting people in your space is not the right way to go.

But, um, I do think community building has to start somewhere. I think food is always a good place, um, to engage people at. And, um, and I've just found like the, the more I put the call out to people, the more. They seem to find other people that, that show up and it's kind of, um, it's kind of becoming like its own thing.

And, um, that's happened with cowgirl camp there. It's also kind of happening with there's another organization that we work with pretty closely called hunters of color, which is a nonprofit that provides like mentorship and training opportunities for people of color that want to get into hunting. So it's a little different than cowgirl camp, but kind of like a similar idea of like, how do you help people that want to learn these skills? are like very, uh, like very white dominated and don't always feel like comfortable or necessarily safe. Like white people with guns don't always feel safe to people of color for reasons. Um, look at history. Um, you know, like a lot of times that is a, that is like a stereotype or like not necessarily a true thing, but also sometimes it is true.

And like, you know, people have had experiences where they just don't feel safe going into these spaces. And so how can you create a learning environment that's actually inviting and welcoming to people? So we've host, we've been hosting events. with them, um, some like hunting camps here at the ranch. And that also has just built, like has spun out into this really cool community of people that, you know, come back. We do two events a year with them. They come back year after year, like, you know, they've had, had babies. Now we have hunters of color babies that like, hopefully going to be running around the ranch pretty soon, which is really cool. Um, And, you know, we had, we had a pretty serious fire here on the ranch. And, um, in 2023, it burned about half of the acreage. I will tell you of all of the people in my life who I can say really showed up for me after that happened, that hunters of color crew, like. They were incredible. Like, 15 people drove from Seattle, which is four and a half hours away, to like, help me build fence for a week.

And we put up like, a mile, two miles of fence, you know, like ripped out a bunch of old fence and put up a bunch of new fence. Um, Because they just showed up in force because like what I've found for us like as we've opened up the land base to more people It just creates this reciprocal goodness because like the more people that care about this land the more help that I have to take care of it It cost me nothing to like share this place with other people And I I gained so much and it's always just like a really fun party when they come for the weekend like hunting camp is is awesome.

You should come up for that. Boys are allowed at that one, Bobby.

[00:57:41] Bobby: I'm not a person of color, but you know, I'll take an invite wherever I'm invited. Yes.

[00:57:46] Beth: as exclusive as me. Yes, white people are allowed to participate in Hunters of Color. It's just primarily A space focused around people of color, but yeah, it's, um, just a really rad group of also a very diverse group. Cause a lot of them come from Seattle, which is a big city. So there's just people from all, all different backgrounds, all different ethnicities, all different countries. Um, so yeah, it's really fun. And the food is really good too.

[00:58:19] Bobby: Sounds great. I'm in. So I think what's becoming clear is, you know, you're pretty good at being an ally to different groups and making sure that voices are heard and they feel safe so that people can, you know, have that somatic experience of safety so that they can then explore and learn. A big part of that, I remember a talk that you gave at the Quivira Regenerate Conference back in 22, I believe it was.

Um, you were talking about your relearning of the history of your land. Can you walk us through that and what that led to in your life?

[00:58:59] Beth: Yeah, um, so I think I kind of mentioned, I always had struggled to integrate this idea of like the social triple bottom line into like sustainability. Like I really understood how the ecology and the financial pieces worked, especially in the context of ranching. I was like, I don't really know what social equity looks like, like other than, I don't know.

I guess we're trying to sell our stuff at like a fair price and not like gouge anybody, but like, uh, yeah. And like obviously support ourselves, which is part of social equity. Um, yeah, I just didn't, I don't know. It didn't mentally click for me, like how to do that piece of the, the work. and know, like 2020 was a crazy year for lots of reasons, but, um, you know, like the black lives matter movement really, you know, had, had a moment that year and, um, and I was very like intrigued by that because I guess people have probably. by this point in the interview that I tend to be a little more on the lefty side of the political spectrum. Although I hate all politicians equally for the record. I think they're all dogs and none should be trusted. Um, well, not, no, I like dogs actually, uh, I shouldn't say that. Um,

[01:00:20] Bobby: you disrespect dogs like that?

[01:00:21] Beth: sorry.

I feel like I had to apologize to my dog there. Um,

[01:00:25] Bobby: Good dog. I want

[01:00:26] Beth: uh, so I was like, really intrigued by that movement and like, really wanting to understand how. To respond to the, like, there was this call for white people to like unpack their privilege. And, and I was like, but I don't really know what that means.

And that was something I honestly had struggled with through all of my sustainability education, like from undergrad and also in my, my grad school program. Like I just, um, now it all feels very clear to me, but like, I just couldn't quite, it couldn't quite click for me, like what we could possibly do. And so I just kind of went back to like the fundamentals of like, okay, I need to learn more about the history of this land because I don't really know anything pre 1937.

Like the story always started in 1937. My great grandparents came here, blah, blah, exactly how I introduced myself at the top of the hour. so I wanted to do more homework around that. There was also, um, standing rock, um, which was, Was that also 2020 Dakota access pipeline? Um, stuff was

[01:01:39] Bobby: to say that was before

[01:01:41] Beth: started

[01:01:42] Bobby: could be wrong.

[01:01:44] Beth: get your fact checkers on that.

Bobby,

[01:01:46] Bobby: That's yes. I am the fact checker. I'll check it after the call slash. I'm not going to check it after the call. I,

[01:01:54] Beth: okay.

[01:01:55] Bobby: well, let's assume it's in the same vicinity of, of timeframe.

[01:01:58] Beth: around that time, you know, there were like the protests at standing rock were happening. What, um, one of my very close family friends, actually Jeremy Rouse's son, who I grew up with. you know, he was. He was pretty involved. Um, his family is Yankton Sioux and a lot of his family were part of the original, um, resistance encampment there. So I was following that movement pretty closely and really just kind of like opening my eyes more and more to like, I don't know. I mean, it wasn't like a surprise to me, but just really understanding like how fully sick the relationship between the United States government and indigenous people is in this country. Um, and has been since its inception. And, um, more about the history of, of our land, which I always kind of had just assumed was boring because I did not know anything about it. So I was like, well, there must not really be anything to know. But the more I kind of unpacked that, the more I was like, Oh, there's actually like a lot of horrible violence that was, um, you know, perpetrated both ways, but largely by white people against indigenous people. Um, and, uh, yeah. And not, you know, not just like people being killed, but also like the violence against people's cultures and like people being unable to practice their culture, and their way of being in reciprocity with the land. And the more and more I learned about this, the more I became convinced that this was the root cause of all of the like environmental issues that we were trying to remediate. at the ranch. It like, Oh, I've been trying to figure out all of these four, like, how do I manage this timber? I have 600 acres of ponderosa pine trees that need constant management that I, you know, I just, I'm always trying to wrap my head around how to do a better job. Um, and then like, I started learning that like, Oh, indigenous people were managing this land with fire for millennia. And I don't know anything about that tool. Um, Or that concept and I felt like a toddler. I was like, oh, I I really thought for a second I was hot shit and knew all of this stuff because I I'm an accredited holistic management professional I've been to all the conferences and i'm friends with all the people and I have done all the things and And I was like, Oh no, like I am, I am like a baby trying to manage, like, just batting stuff around.

I am missing all of this context and all of this understanding of how people over time have interacted and been in relationship with this landscape. anyway, all of that, like learning, I guess, has really informed this cool relationship that we have with the Salish School of Spokane. Uh, which is an immersion language school, primarily for indigenous youth, but anyone can attend the school. And they teach kids the Salish language, they take all their academic classes in Salish. Um, the people that run the school are awesome, uh, super, super brilliant. They, the, their model has been used in a lot of other indigenous language learning, uh, programs around the world, actually, um, like they're consulting with a group in Australia right now to build out curriculum for their language.

So the work that the sailor school does is just absolutely incredible. And I, um, through kind of a roundabout way ended up getting connected with him eventually. And they started bringing students out. Um, to dig camas on the ranch,

[01:05:36] Bobby: And what is Camus? What,

[01:06:00] Beth: water, of course, water is life. Um, and, uh, yeah, like that relationship has just been incredibly healing. Um, you know, and, and it's like, again, one of these just like, Generative ways to engage in this work because it's like, it costs me nothing to have a bunch of adorable kindergartners running around the ranch, like picking flowers and digging roots, like, that's one of the best days of the year for me. Um, or, you know, sometimes if we get, if we can get all the kids out, it'll be like a whole week because we bring a different class out every day. Um, and, you know, just getting to hear these little kids. in Salish while they're digging roots, which is something that like their ancestors have been forbidden from do like they are the first generation since boarding schools to grow up speaking their language and engaging in, in these ancestral practices, especially because this is like an urban Indian population, you know, in Spokane.

So these kids don't live on the reservation, so they're not connected to the traditional practices in that way. Um, most of them are living in a pretty urban environment. And so, like, just to see these kids doing this, like, pretty radical, act of reclaiming their culture, and they don't even know, like, they don't know that it's a, that it's a revolutionary act.

They're just being kids. They just think that this is the way. Um, it's so cool to be a part of that. Uh, and, um, and I'm learning more like through that relationship. Like I'm, I'm able to like gain access to more information about how to be a better land manager. I'm learning so much about Camus. Um, and I'm really trying to, one of my, one of my biggest goals is to, um, you know, Big focus is right now is understanding how to like respectfully graze around Camas and make sure that we're helping that food source actually proliferate over time.

Like I, part of the restoration for me now that I have this kind of new cultural context is, um, you know, this land was historically the breadbasket for Camas, this whole area of the channeled scab lands that we live in. people from all from British Columbia down to central Oregon would come here to harvest Camas And when colonization in this area happened, white settlers very specifically targeted Camas fields. the first places that they filed homestead claims for, because they were the best tillable acres, because that's where food was being grown. Um, and so like, there's a pretty direct lineage between the history of agriculture in this region and like the direct dispossession of people from this very important spiritual, cultural, uh, resource. And, um, and yeah, so it feels right to me that part of restoring, you know, restoring this landscape is that I want to see more cameras and I would love to see the sailor school, you know, have enough that they can serve it in the cafeteria once a week if they want to, like that. And, and that's kind of how, like, I feel like the social piece has finally integrated for me into that triple bottom line. Is like finally understanding that just. to land can be so transformative and without being able to like untangle all of these complex problems of colonization and intergenerational trauma and, you know, harms that were done hundreds of years ago by people that I can't influence or do anything about, know, and, and yet, like, I just, um, I'm not a bystander.

I wasn't raised that way. It was like, if, if you see something is wrong, you do something about it. If you see your neighbor's cow is out of the fence, you don't drive by and go, well, that's a bummer for them. Not my problem. I didn't let that cow out. No, you put the cow back, you fix the fence, and then you let your neighbor know that they had a cow out. Like, that's just, you know, To, to me, I feel like I get frustrated by all the political, like, partisan rhetoric that is happening around diversity, equity, and inclusion right now because, because to me, this is like, this is truly about space for meritocracy to actually exist so that the people who are the best suited to do these things in positions to, to do them. Uh, we know if we look at nature as our teacher that diversity is a driver of resilience and we know that we have a resilience problem in our community of land managers right now, like they are dying, they are literally dying and disappearing. And we know that when we see a dying plant community, we need to create germination sites for new growth. Like that has to be our intervention. And I don't see any difference between the situation we're in right now. And like what we should do if we were managing at a, at a, at the soil surface. So it's like, what are the germination sites for these new people with new skills, with new, um, new paradigms, new lived experiences?

How do we start letting those people get a toe hold? yeah.

[01:11:33] Bobby: but then applying that in the socioeconomic pieces as well, when you're dealing with like humanity and taking these lessons that we have from ecological systems and then applying them to social systems, which I think is a really important mental exercise for people to, to, to.

evaluate and critically analyze, you know, how are you showing up in the world versus what you preach in terms of what to do on the land or vice versa. Um, in that talk that you gave in 2022, where you were talking about your work with the Salish, you also went through some core concepts of holistic management, and then Offered some new perspective on them, like looking at them through a different lens.

Um, would it be cool if we go through those one by one? I thought what you had said there was incredible.

[01:12:28] Beth: Yeah, are you gonna cue me?

[01:12:32] Bobby: I'll cue you. All right. So the first one, uh, that we talk about a lot in holistic management, it's the first key insight, uh, basically where the holistic part comes from. But, uh, nature functions in holes.

[01:12:46] Beth: Right. So, so, yeah, this is like the, the mama of all mamas and holistic management nature functions and holes. and I firmly believe that human beings are part of nature. So whether we're talking about, like, the current sort of succession crisis where we're seeing, like, our rural communities hollowed out and we're losing, um, you know, we're losing an important piece of the whole there, or we look at the dispossession of indigenous land stewards from their, from their land and resources, like, anytime you're Taking human beings out of the ecosystem. You're also removing a critical part of the whole because their management and their influence is part of the whole. And, um, and so I think that like, we do have a responsibility to like diagnose that, um, when we're looking at root causes of, of problems, like, is, is there a disruption where like. Uh, human beings have been removed from the equation, and how was that done and what actions need to be taken to address that?

[01:13:56] Bobby: Trying to think if there's a good follow up to that. Um, how might that look in, in applying that perspective?

[01:14:10] Beth: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, in our context, uh, it, it kind of goes back to, like, this example of, of, like, burning Ponderosa Pine Forest. Like, you know, this was important, important practice that was a land management practice for literally millennia, um, like, 5 years. Which, you know, better or worse, like you can have opinions about prescribed burning as a, as a land management practice, but this was part of the regime and the environment was adapted to that regular disturbance. And then removed the human beings that were doing that land management, uh, and confined them to reservations. And then we replaced that with, Uh, clear cutting and, uh, total suppression of fire for about 150 years. And what our ponderosa pine forests look like now is completely unrecognizable to what they looked like when settlers came here in the 1860s to 1880s.

Like, our old growth ponderosa pine forests are gone. They have all been cut down. Everything we have is secondary or tertiary growth. It's all dog hair stands. We're seeing, we're right kind of like on that rural urban divide where I live. So basically everything to the West of me is a farmland and everything to the East of me is suburbs and then Spokane. Uh, I 90 goes through the middle of the ranch. So we are right in the middle of it. Um, and you know, so we're seeing more and more. Development of the area too. So more and more people are coming in who have less and less historical context about how to manage the land and less and less understanding. and. are seeing, uh, you know, like the natural result of that is these catastrophic, catastrophic fires. Um, and, you know, the fire that we had last, uh, or sorry, two years ago, it was August 18th of 2023. Uh, that fire burned up to 10, 000 acres in 24 hours. And the same day, another fire started an hour north of Spokane that also blew up to 10, 000 acres. I mean, we had like just, you

[01:16:29] Bobby: Are you.

[01:16:30] Beth: fire conditions and we see that throughout the American West that's happening all over.

[01:16:33] Bobby: Are you adapting your management at all? Um, to address the increased risk of wildfire or what you're learning, you know, through your time with the Salish and prescribed burning? I know you mentioned, um, you're learning how to, uh, more respectfully graze around Camas, but you know, what's evolving in terms of your management?

[01:16:53] Beth: Yeah. I have not implemented any prescribed burning right now. I'm still totally in, in like a learning phase, uh, of all of that, but I am super, super excited about prescribed burning as a tool, um, add to the toolbox. And I think, um, I think at this point, if you look at the successional state of our forests, which is again, like this secondary or tertiary growth, um, like, I don't know, I've tried to, dad and I have tried to manage this with grazing alone for, uh, you know, 50 years now between the two of us.

And like, we're just not, we're not keeping up with it because there's also like, I have, I have a cow calf operation. I breed mama cows. I have limitations on, um, on when I can graze those pine trees because they will cause abortions in the cattle. so you know, I'm, I, I can't graze just for ecology 100 percent of the time.

I have to balance all of these other management factories factors because unfortunately have to exist in the context of capitalism. So I'm out here trying to money on top of everything, you know,

[01:18:07] Bobby: Well, if you look at But if you look at the holistic management framework, cows are, you know, they're part of living organisms. There's rest, there's technology. Fire is one of the tools in the toolkit that we have available. There's nothing in holistic management that says you can't burn.

[01:18:23] Beth: yeah, absolutely. I think that like, I sort of have this personal bias and I think that it has in the past existed within holistic management against fire as a tool. but, but, you know, like also, there's sort of the holistic management bias, but then also there's just like the, I was always just raised that like fires, bad fires, dangerous.

We don't play with fire. Um, Uh, everything's going to burn down sooner or later. Like just a lot of anxiety around the reality of wildfire. Um, and so it was never like an intent, an intentional fire is something you would never do, like, you know, unless you're burning slash in the middle of the winter or something. so it's just really kind of like getting my wheels turning around and like. Okay, I can tell you for sure that a fire in the middle of August when it's 100 degrees with 35 mile an hour of winds is not a good day to have a fire.

[01:19:22] Bobby: Correct.

[01:19:23] Beth: Uh, maybe the 10th of March it's like super wet and that fire's just gonna be really low and slow burning and super easy to control and you can just put it out with a shovel when you don't want to do it anymore.

Like, sounds like a more and more appealing, uh, approach to try and like knock back all of this ladder fuel. also have been doing some cool stuff with bringing in sheep to do fire breaks. Um, hopefully going to be doing more of that next year. I've been collaborating with a friend of mine who has a contract grazing business, um, and kind of trying to keep her sheep and work in between contracts.

Um,

[01:20:03] Bobby: For folks that might be wondering why couldn't you just do the, those fire breaks with your cattle.

[01:20:09] Beth: um, it's, it's difficult to get on the, on the Um, forest land is difficult to get the animal impact to make a fire break with cattle, uh, because the forage is pretty thin. Like, um, yeah, it's, it's a lot of bunch grasses, very fine grasses. Um, and so I have found that the sheep are a little more effective in terms of being able to bunch them in there with a electron net and get them to actually, like, Get stuff grazed all the way down. Um, but I don't think there's any reason why you couldn't do it with cattle. But yeah, again, like I don't want to nutritionally stress my cows when I'm trying to get them fat to sell them. And, um, yeah, just a lot of plates to keep spinning, you know, kind of

[01:21:02] Bobby: Makes sense. And you gotta, yeah, you gotta make decisions based on what works for your context, which leads us into the second point that you had from your talk, which is context is vital. How do you look at that one?

[01:21:14] Beth: Uh, yeah. So, I mean, that's just the idea that like, we always have to understand like as much as we can about the context in which we're making decisions in order to be the best holistic decision makers. And again, I think this goes back to like understanding the history of own land as land managers and, you know, the reality of it is every inch of land in this country was once stewarded by indigenous people who have been, by and large, violently removed from that land.

And so like, that is a piece of context that I think we should all be. I'll be reckoning with, and you know, I, I know I, I talk a lot about like the, like the indigenous lens of all of this, but I think it expands to like other areas of race. because like what I've learned from my collaboration with hunters of color is just, you know, how difficult access to land has been historically for people of color, especially rural land. Um, and so just like understanding the reality of like, Why, like, why are we in the position that we're in? Why do the land managers we have look the way that they look? Um, and that's not to like blame or shame anyone. It's just like, let's understand the context of what has been happening over the last couple hundred years, because we have been seeing a steady degradation in the health of our land since colonizers have arrived here. and. You know, I'm not saying that that's just like white people have ruined everything, but it is like that is the problem that we as graziers are tasked with remediating. And if you look at why that has degradation has happened, it happened alongside a whole bunch of social consequences and a whole bunch of people being dispossessed or discriminated against. from the opportunity to be able to make their own contributions to that. Uh, and so I feel pretty strongly that like, you know, I can't, I obviously can't tell other people what to do, but for me, for my context, like it seems vital to address some of those historical If I want to do a good job of addressing the environmental, uh, factors that I want to address. And then

[01:23:46] Bobby: There's a,

[01:23:47] Beth: all of this stuff isn't happening in the past. This is also all still happening to date. Like we have current conditions today, um, that are influencing all of this as well. So not just like a rear view mirror kind of thing.

[01:24:01] Bobby: there was a phrase that I was reminded of as you were talking about that. And I think this comes more from like the world of therapy and interpersonal work where, you know, you acknowledge, you know, whatever traumas you're carrying, or whatever it may be the things that you're struggling with. And. It's the phrase that came to mind was it's not your fault, but it's your responsibility.

And I think it's possible to hold those two things to both be true. And I think that's where sometimes people get, um, we get into some of the polarity in some of these conversations is because people are misconstruing the responsibility part with, um, fault and guilt in some capacity. But those are entirely separate pieces.

Like something can totally not be your fault, but because of how the, the cards landed, you know, what you have in front of you and the situation that you find yourself in, like it's your responsibility to do something about that, whether you had anything to do about it in the past at all.

[01:25:03] Beth: Right, anything about, like, the excitement with which we often, like, Approach regenerating a piece of land, right? Like lifting ecosystem function. Like it's like, oh, we found this degraded land and now we're going to be able to like make improvements to it, right? Like that's kind of, kind of one of the concepts that's built into the background of this work, right?

And it's like, What if we applied the same enthusiasm to repairing human relationships that we put into repairing land? I think that they would be, I have found for myself that those things have been very mutually beneficial. as I, as I open up myself more and more to addressing some of these social issues, and, you know, I can't undo things in the past or whatever, but I can, I can do some things and I'm not going to let the fact that I can't solve the whole problem prevent me from taking any action at all because I just think that that's lazy. and, and boring. Like let's do stuff. I'm not about that. Like I just want to do stuff. I want to fix problems. I want to build things. I want to, I want to like be in relationship with creative people who also want to do that stuff. So, like, I just get, I get really frustrated by, like, the kind of navel gazing, or the like, Well, that's not my fault. I didn't do that. It's like, well, none of us did that! Like, none, none of us did this. None of us want to be in this situation. Like, like I said, I would love to just be traipsing through the woods with my chainsaw, and my dog, and, you know, tie yi, yippee, yippee yo, yippee yay, but, like, I got other problems I got to solve, unfortunately.

[01:26:45] Bobby: Yeah. All right. Solving more problems that leads us to number three on the list, which is treat root causes, not symptoms.

[01:26:54] Beth: Uh, right. I mean, I think, like, I hope I'm not belaboring the point here, but again, like, if we kind of, like, if we dig down to, like, what are the root causes of the problems that we're seeing on the soil surface, like, a lot of the root causes have to do with this disruption that, you know, happened concurrent with colonization and the radical shifts that we've seen in land management, uh, So I really believe if we want to address the symptoms of those issues, we have to also treat some of those root causes and understand how those ruptures continue to reverberate and continue to influence social systems that we live in today.

And if we just cover our ears and don't ever think about that or, or like get curious about it, uh, I think we're just only ever going to get so far. going to run up against walls.

[01:27:48] Bobby: All right. Number four on the list, regenerating ecosystem function.

[01:27:55] Beth: Uh, I mean, my question around that one is always just like regenerating to what? Because have like my concept of what this place looks like goes back to 1937 at best, and I can find some historical records that maybe stretch back another 60 years behind that. But it wasn't until I really started getting into, I found this amazing book. Um, that is written about the Spokane tribe. That's a collection of oral histories that the sociologist, um, who worked at Eastern Washington university collected over his entire career. Um, but like, it wasn't really until I started like digging into those oral histories that I started to understand more of the context of what this land looked like pre colonization, how it was used pre colonization, and like what the potential of it even could be in the future. So I think that like, we have to reach back through time to understand what the, like what the potential of an ecosystem even is, because the reality is we're all managing degraded land at this point. There's nobody who's not.

[01:29:05] Bobby: Yeah, there's an aspect of generational amnesia that comes up a lot or shifting baseline syndrome. I think is another term for it where, you know, people can only remember as far back, you know, to their childhood. Um, and then, you know, your dad will remember back to his childhood and his parents would remember back to theirs.

If you're looking at the potential of a landscape, the baseline understanding of what it could be has shifted so much because you are only seeing so far into, um, you know, recent history. You're not going to see the full potential of it. And it causes us to make short sighted decisions or assumptions about what's possible, um, in, in terms of all these systems that we're managing.

[01:29:49] Beth: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[01:29:52] Bobby: All right. Last one on the list. Um, Planning processes for managing complexity. How are you looking at that differently

[01:30:00] Beth: Uh, yeah. I mean, I'm just, I think that we already have so many of the tools to address this within holistic management, like how. How do we make decisions that integrate these social realities? Well, duh, as long as we start including them in our holistic context checks, like we're going to start making decisions that address these things. Um, you know, you can make a grazing plan that, that protects and stewards the cultural resources that you have on your land base. we can use ecological monitoring to measure those impacts over time and make sure that we're, like, seeing improvements. I mean, I think that, that of all of, like, the sectors of agriculture, I think that holistic management practitioners are probably the best position to start to tackle these problems. just because we're all, we already have so many of the tools at our, at our disposal to try and engage with them.

[01:30:59] Bobby: growing up around holistic management and now being more exposed to other forms of land management indigenous forms specifically, do you find any correlations or things that contrast and maybe don't exactly meld one for one.

[01:31:20] Beth: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think the, there's a lot of correlations. Um, what Loray, who's the director of the sailor school told me the first time she came out to visit, um, was she like, she was like, we managed this land just like a ranch. It was just like how you thought about it. Like they had, you know, they, they didn't have domesticated livestock, but they were using the tool of fire to like, intentionally create disturbance to keep grassland productive, to bring game, um, to encourage camas growth, to keep ladder fuel under control, um, to keep brush open for service berries and, you know, like berry growth. Um, and like, there was this pattern of seasonal rounds. People in this area moved from place to place, like in the camas times, they were here, you know, they went to the river when it was time to harvest salmon. And so there was this natural rotation, much like, you know, a grazing plan where people kind of moved through the landscape based on what resources were available, um, and change their own density depending on what resources were were available because, um, there, Again, like we're people from British Columbia all the way down to central Oregon, you know, utilizing this area.

Um, so I think that there's, there's a lot of parallels between, um, between that type of like semi nomadic, uh, resource gathering and kind of like our approach to, how we're, um, introducing like disturbance into the environment. I think some of the big contrasts, um, for me. I just have looked at every plant here through a forage lens for most of my life. So it's like, is it a good, is it good forage or not good forage? Do the cows like to eat it or not like to eat it? and that was like my kind of main metric for plants, like being interested. And also I really like flowers, so I'm just a big nerd on flowers. I

[01:33:36] Bobby: Yeah, makes a lot of sense.

[01:33:38] Beth: Yeah, but it was kind of like, like a big aha moment for me was we have all these wetlands on the ranch and we have a bunch of tules, which is like this big reed kind of grass that, um, it's a little smaller than a cattail and they're round. but like tules were not a plant I thought of as having any value at all. It's just the stuff that grows around wet places. Uh, never thought about them in any way other than that. And it's like a thing for birds to sit on, I guess. That's nice. but tules are one of the most important textiles. for indigenous people.

All of their tipi coverings were woven out of tules because they can, they can weave them together and it makes this watertight mat because they actually swell up when they get wet.

[01:34:22] Bobby: So it's like a thatched roof.

[01:34:24] Beth: Yeah, basically. Yeah. And so they would sew them into these big mats and then cover these with them and make mattresses out of them.

That's what they would like eat off of. Super, super important textile. Well, like that was a plant I had never thought of as having like. any kind of value other than like, I remember some story in like the winter of 47, grandpa cut down all the tulips cause the cows had nothing to eat, like kind of thing. but like, I was like, Oh wow, this whole, like this is a whole resource that I didn't even know was a thing. Um, and there like biscuit root was another one that I was like, I just thought that that was like, kind of ugly flower. And it's like, no, this is an important, uh, food source. Lomaceum, um, there's a whole bunch of different kinds of it, but, uh, yeah.

So like, I think that I'm just, I'm seeing the plant community through like a way broader lens now. Um, That's not so, so myopic and cow focused.

[01:35:26] Bobby: Yeah.

[01:35:26] Beth: really being in cow land for the last 15 years. I'm trying to lift my head up above it a

[01:35:31] Bobby: It's, I mean, it's a great land to be in, but there is a lot more to the world. And if you expand your horizons, it's probably a little more richer.

[01:35:40] Beth: Yeah. Yeah. There's just, there's just so much out there to know about everything.

[01:35:45] Bobby: Hmm. What are, I'm wondering about your holistic context and if it's changed or evolved at all over recent years based on the work you've been doing? Hmm.

[01:36:02] Beth: yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a constantly evolving thing for me. Like there's core tenants that are the same, but like, I'm always changing and growing. So I think my context is also. know, should, should stay, uh, lithe and nimble alongside that. Um, you know, like we have, we all function as holes within holes.

So I have my own personal context that guides my own decision making. And then, I have a context at the ranch level that, that, you know, has other decision makers included in it that, that guides that. Um, and that is certainly shifting as my parents age and like kind of we're, we're all finding new, new roles. and it's definitely shifting for me a lot personally as I'm, I've been going through a lot of, um, a lot of personal transformation and like really examining what it is that I want. To have in mind what I want to manage towards. but I think like, I think what has really shifted is, um, you know, it's, it's, it's the same concept that we've been touching on, touching on through this whole conversation around, um, really just being intentional about building community and, um, and creating. Like, I guess a new, like birthing a new hole almost. I think that's sort of where I'm, what I'm on the cusp of.

Um, because our, this ranch, like, uh, like many ranches is also going through like a succession time and trying to figure out like what's going to come after. I have an adult child, but I don't think that they're going to be. Taking over the reins here, um, probably, uh, you never know, but I, that doesn't look super likely to happen at this point. Um, so it's like, what is the, what is the thing we're building next? And like, what, um, how can I include some of these new, this like new amazing cast of characters that I've kind of found, um, through, through this, I guess, equity work I've been engaged in and like, just continue to integrate those voices into, into the vision. Um, yeah, so a lot, it's a little out of focus still, but, um, I think that that's kind of where I'm at right now. I'm leaving space for a new thing to come forward.

[01:38:42] Bobby: Yeah. Well, that's admirable because you're. You're broadening your scope and integrating those pieces back into the whole that it is you're managing. And so it would make sense that some of those pieces are blurry because you're not going to know exactly where you're going or, or how things are taking shape.

Um, of the pieces that you do have clarity on though, is there like one piece of your holistic context that really stands out as being blurry? Notable or special in some way.

[01:39:15] Beth: Well, I think that the I think that the future resource base, um, piece of it, you know, which is like, what is the world that I'm building towards, what, what do I want to see in the future? Like, what's the 100 year vision for this place? you know, I, I see this as like, Well, okay. If we're really, really going to do the dream dream, like I see the ranch at a hub, that's like the center of a land trust, um, that would be buying up all of the land around us so that it doesn't get turned into subdivisions and stays in agriculture and wildlife habitat. And you know, that through partnerships like hunters of color and new cowgirl camp, and I'm sure other. Organizations that don't even exist yet. Or maybe we'll be birthed out of those organizations. I don't know. Um, that like there, that it becomes this nucleus, I guess, for, um, for people to just experience, uh, being in right relationship with land.

Like, that's what I would really like to see. I, I had such a privileged childhood, like. You know, just to be able to like, to be able to run around naked outside and just like not have anybody care what

[01:40:40] Bobby: Hey, don't lie. You know, you're still doing it. You're still doing it.

[01:40:43] Beth: Yeah. Don't, don't rubberneck too hard as you're driving. It does, it's pretty visible from the freeway, but I do kind of forget sometimes like, Oh yeah, people get a show. Um, or do rubberneck if you want. That's yeah, I'm, I'm putting it out there. So, but I, you know, like just this, the ability to be on land and be free and not be like, and that's a, that's like the really. The sad parts of what I've heard both from the, from like hunters of color and from sailor school is experiences where people have just not been, like, you know, have been disrupted from that feeling of just being able to be safe on land, like, because someone is coming and asking, what are you doing here?

Why are you here? You don't deserve to be here. You don't have a right to be here. you know, I just think that's bullshit. All people should feel like they have a place in the world. where they can be safe. Um, and just be like connected to nature. Like we all at the end of the day, that's the only thing that's real is the ecosystem processes. Everything else is just shit that we made up. what is real is community dynamics and energy flow and nutrients cycling and, you know, and, and water. Like, these are the things that actually matter. And, And I think if we can all more to that and through each other, through that, then I think we could get a little bit closer to, to unfucking stuff.

Sorry if you have to believe that.

[01:42:19] Bobby: I'm not bleeping it, but

[01:42:24] Beth: I don't think I dropped a single F bomb so far, which is

[01:42:27] Bobby: I am very surprised. I am very surprised we've gone this far. I mean, you can make up for lost time. If you just want to give a

[01:42:33] Beth: Okay.

[01:42:33] Bobby: slew of expletives right now.

[01:42:35] Beth: turn it off. If your kids are in the car.

[01:42:39] Bobby: Well, I mean, I, I gotta say, I'm, I'm always impressed by what you're up to. Um, I think, you know, the first time we met. Was that some conference and you were just kind of chilling, like playing guitar, just relax and having a good old time. And like people were gathered around you. You just got this energy that brings folks in.

And I think it's, um, it's contagious and I love to see it. And I am grateful that you've, uh, brought it here to the show.

[01:43:14] Beth: um,

[01:43:20] Bobby: with something. Um, anything that you want to leave folks with any parting thoughts or suggestions for folks, uh, for whom some of this.

what we've discussed has resonated or actually maybe even speak to folks for whom some of this may have caused a little bit of, you know, going onto the heels a little bit and being like, Oh, you guys sound pretty, you know, liberal and woke. Um, anything you want to share with folks,

[01:43:52] Beth: Um, yeah, for people that, that resonated with some of the things that I shared, um, I would really like to make a more of a community of practice around engaging in this stuff, especially for landowning white people. Um, like, what, what does doing meaningful, like, reparative work around social issues look like in practice?

Like, not in a theoretical way, but very practical, like, what are people doing? Um, so if anyone's interested in that, you can holler at me, and I

[01:44:26] Bobby: how should they holler at you? What's the best way to get in touch?

[01:44:29] Beth: you can, I'll give my work email, you can email me at beth at uvehub. com, that's u v e hub, h u b, dot com. that's probably the easiest way to get in touch with me. Um, for people that maybe this felt a little uncomfortable with, uh, to, I say thank you for hanging in there, if you listened this far. I Love, uh, I love like, um, intellectually stimulating debate when I was a kid. is part of my childhood trauma also, but like every morning I had, I would have breakfast with my grandparents and my dad and my grandpa would read the newspaper and then they would debate topics in the newspaper and my sister and I were expected to choose positions on these topics as well.

And, um, so I had like 30 minutes of debate team before school every day. It was. Yeah, I would just like pray for my neighbor, John Cogley to pick me up and take me to school. Like, Oh my God, get me out of here. But, um, I do, despite that, like actually really enjoy, um, having challenging conversations. So just invite to like, have dialogue if they feel called to do that.

Um, that I have like a ton of time to like, just be doing extra emails. I'll be fully transparent, but like, I. I just find our current political climate so sad and discouraging and like live at the intersection of like the woke liberal, whatever. And the Trumpy conservative, whatever, like I, all of those people are people in my life that I care about. And, and I think so much of it is just partisan rhetoric. And like at the end of the day, people actually do just want to love each other and be safe and, and be happy and, um, have their basic needs met. And, um, And so, yeah, I, I really hope that like the regenerative ag space can be a place where maybe we can have some of those conversations. Um, You know, that like can pop out of some of the talking points on, on both sides. I think that, you know, that's, that it's, there's a lot of stuff in, in, in leftist movements that is also really toxic and shuts down conversation and the way that people are tone policed and not allowed to make mistakes and, um, Yeah, like I, I just am really hungry for like more meaningful engagement between all human beings around all topics.

So, that's my parting words. Like, man, can we all just talk, talk to each other a little more? That'd be good.

[01:47:13] Bobby: Amen to that. I think in, in this hyper polarized world that we're living in, really, the only thing we can do is try to find common ground. Like, that is the work for all of us, you know, regardless of what side you find yourself on. Like, we need to, you know, Heal that divide, you know, we have gotten way too far away from our fellow human beings.

And if we can find that common ground and find that shared humanity with others whom, especially those whom we disagree with, um, there's only good things to come from that.

[01:47:51] Beth: Yeah, I hope so. This was great, Bobby. Thank you so much.

[01:47:56] Bobby: Well, it's, it's been a joy. Um, my last question I was going to leave you with, I heard that in high school you did slam poetry,

[01:48:06] Beth: Oh my

[01:48:07] Bobby: and I also heard that you are an amateur yodeler. And so, I'd like to just offer the stage, if you'd like to leave us with a little ditty.

[01:48:18] Beth: That is, oh man, yeah, should I, should I get my guitar out? Wait, how, how much of a diddy are we?

[01:48:26] Bobby: I don't know. You're Your podcast episode, whatever you want to do. If you want to get a guitar and sing us out, we can do that.

[01:48:34] Beth: oh god,

[01:48:35] Bobby: That's out.

[01:48:36] Beth: You have a request?

[01:48:37] Bobby: Oh God. Um, no, whatever, whatever comes to mind, whatever you're feeling.

[01:48:43] Beth: on the spot, does it, Bobby?

[01:48:45] Bobby: Hey, that's why I'm in the interview chair right now. So I don't have to be put on the spot.

[01:48:48] Beth: You're smart. Okay. Um, yeah. You want to pause the recording for one second and I'll tune a guitar and

[01:48:54] Bobby: Sure.

[01:48:55] Beth: doodle around with something. Okay. You're funny. Uh, yeah, I don't know what to, what's going to have some yodeling in it. Let me think about this for a second. Hold on. We're loading some chords here. Okay, excuse me. Now, do you listen to Nick Shoulders at all? Oh,

[01:49:18] Bobby: No, I don't think I know him.

[01:49:19] Beth: Nick Shoulders. I'll send you some.

[01:49:21] Bobby: Okay.

[01:49:22] Beth: Uh, Okay, okay, here's a song. You don't, don't put the whole thing, just put a clip of it in or something. Don't like put

[01:49:29] Bobby: We got it.

[01:49:29] Beth: me.

[01:49:30] Bobby: I got you.

[01:49:31] Beth: Uh, okay, this is a good one. This is an Island Jewels song. I don't know if there's any yodeling in it, but it's a pretty song. God, I haven't played this in a while. Okay, I think I got it. Stolen from the desert in the lost part of the state Just a half broke horse, he waits by the gate No rattled horse can stand him or any of his kind Their hidden laws condemn him, they're so rigid and refined He watches on the ash, dirty coat and shaggy mane. Too wild for this world to tame. For Mustangs. Grew up in the desert, in the lost part of the state. Cut our teeth on promises and empty plates. Single wides and ranches disappear before our eyes. These folks here don't come around, they're so rigid and refined. We stand on the edge, dirty coats and ragged hands. We're strangers to this world and this new breed of man. We just got our notice, this whole place is going under. The bank's whip is on us, we won't last summer. You'll have to come and take us with the force of ten trains Cause it's no life worth living if you don't hold the reins A half broke horse from the lost part of the state We watch in silence as we wait by the gate On both sides of these bars, we're one and the same. Too wild for this world to tame. For Mustangs.

[01:52:17] Bobby: Beth Robinette, ladies and gentlemen.

[01:52:22] Beth: Y'all, the EP's coming out, never.

[01:52:28] Bobby: Thank you, Beth.

[01:52:29] Beth: Thanks Bobby, you're the best.

[01:52:32] bobby_3_03-20-2025_140925: This episode was edited by Claire Everson and her theme music was composed and performed by Travis McNamara. Ruminations is a production of the Savory Institute, the Savory Foundation, and Land to Market. If you like this episode, please consider leaving us a five star review on Apple Podcast and subscribing to our YouTube channel where you can find video versions of all episodes plus other content.

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