Running a Grassfed and Regenerative Dairy Farm

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[Music] welcome to Ruminations I'm your host

Bobby Gill and today we are talking with Phyllis

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and Paul Van Amburgh who run Dharma Lea—a 100%

grass-fed and holistically managed dairy farm in

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upstate New York. In this episode we'll explore

how they got started as first generation farmers

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how they transitioned from beef to dairy then

how they transitioned from conventional dairy to

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grass-fed and then finally how they went from

rotational grazing to holistic planned grazing

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In doing so the Van Amburghs increased their

grazing season by 120% They cut their feed

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costs by 20% They improved their profit margins

to 41% compared to just 3% in grain-fed dairy

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Uh we also go over their soil organic matter

which hovered around 2 to 3% when they first

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bought the farm and now hovers between 11 and

13% So incredible results that they're seeing

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out at Dharma Lea we'll break down what holistic

plan grazing actually looks like in dairy how

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they built this more resilient business model what

it's like raising a family on a working dairy farm

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why more farmers aren't making the shift and a lot

more Um but let's get to the bios Paul and Phyllis

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began their farming journey in 98 with small-scale

beef production Today they milk over 200 cows that

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are 100% grass-fed and they do so with their five

kids that range in age from 15 to 24 Phyllis is an

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accredited uh holistic management educator in the

Savory Global Network And so she's working with

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farmers across the world to help them transition

their conventional practices to more regenerative

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operations Paul Van Amburgh has played a key role

in developing the market for 100% grass-fed dairy

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including helping to establish Maple Hill Creamery

now one of the largest grass-fed dairy brands in

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the US Paul and Phyllis have also played a key

role in the development of the Northeast Organic

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Dairy Producers Alliance and they've been active

thought leaders and action leaders in promoting

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grass-fed dairy as a viable alternative to

industrial production And with that I'll just

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say let's dive in Um it's a wonderful conversation

We go long on this one It's about two hours and I

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have pages and pages of questions that I didn't

get to So we will probably do a round two with

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Paul and Phyllis at some point But for now here is

my conversation with Paul and Phyllis Van Amburgh

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of Dharma Lea But first a word from our sponsors

This episode is brought to you by Savory's growing

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Have you seen Allan Savory's TED talk There's a

set of before and after photos in that TED talk

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that show the transformation that's possible

Um and this particular set of photos are in

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Zimbabwe It's totally barren land And then just 3

or 4 years later after managing holistically the

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grasses are tall head high perennials It's an

incredible transformation And there's a chance

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that you can go see this in person We've got an

upcoming savory journey to go visit this site This

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is the Dimbangombe Conservancy It's in Victoria

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birthplace of holistic management It's the first

ever savory hub We're running a trip in January of

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which is savory.global/earth-day-giveaway That is

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savory.global/earth-day-giveaway We'll also

link it here below the episode We'll see you

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in Zim. Paul and Phyllis Van Amburgh welcome to

Ruminations Good morning Thanks for having us Ah

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it's so great to see you guys It's It's been a

few years Um how's life on the farm these days

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Pretty good We love it honestly Um challenges

as always It's winter so not a good time to

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ask that question but the winter is when you rest

right Right Yeah Theoretically Yeah Yeah I guess

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there's not as much rest in a dairy operation

in the winter as you would with beef Not at all

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No I mean um single digits creates its own set

of issues and um water and um cow comfort and

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um diesel fuel um you know lots of uh um things

that have to process becomes very important So

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um you know oh I forgot to plug in the skid

loader Well uh then we're going to wait four

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hours to start chores Um so everything is

processed in the winter and um it's been uh

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it's been an interesting winter because our

our typically I'm running that process and

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this is the sort of the first winner that I'm not

running that process my children are running the

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process And so um it's it's been really amazing

to watch them sort of move into that role a lot

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more gracefully frankly than their father does it

Yeah What has that transition been like You know

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tell us a little bit about um the family uh your

kids' ages and you know it sounds like now they're

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getting involved in the family business What's

that like What are the ages Philly I always mess

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them up So I'll let you do that Um and I'll just

throw in for context that we started dairying with

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three small children Um we had five So we were in

the beginning our beginning dairy years were also

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little babies and little kids And now they're

all grown and so they're um 24 23 19 17 and 15

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And it's been you know it's been a great ride And

you know kids you always hope that they're going

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to grow up and turn into amazing people And um

you know your your job as a parent is to try to

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set that up And watching them um really grow into

just the best people And having them still around

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is I mean I feel like we've arrived just on that

point regardless of whatever else we've done Um

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so Grace is the oldest She's 24 Uh she was married

last summer and we um bought a new farm um eight

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years ago because all five kids wanted to still be

involved in the farm from what they thought at the

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age you know we took a gamble Um so she's she's

running our smaller farm and the other four are

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involved also It's not really too different It's

it's sort of just two locations of the same farm

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Um and yeah so Vince is 23 and he he probably

does the majority of the management on the farm

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Yeah Um he's in charge of a lot but Oliver who's

17 is right behind him you know So we talked about

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winter The other thing that came to my mind

was you know every other day we got to make

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sure the driveway is clear and deiced so that the

milk truck can come up and come in you know and

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we always have mechanical you know our our milk

system is always running We're always collecting

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milk cooling milk all that stuff So um they have

a big role in sort of doing that taking care of

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the cows Um Ruby who's 15 has been tremendously

more involved this year So she actually um the

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other two daughters Maggie and Grace are very cow

focused and Ruby is sort of cow and m I would say

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machinery focused So she runs the skid steer

and keeps the barn clean Um uh you know keeps

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the holding area clean etc etc But she's also in

charge of calves she and Maggie together which is

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um no small task especially this time of year We

have we've had I don't know I think seven already

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in the last four days Seven calves Um Yeah they're

amazing It's it's um it's kind of wild to watch

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um them explore their own independence around a

lot of these things Bobby I mean in a sense it's

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um I mean nothing like a kid to show you your

own inadequacies in in a certain respect like

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you you start like you know um probably most of

the questions that are coming out of my mouth I'm

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stopping before I ask them because I'm it's really

questions that I probably should have asked myself

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a long time ago So this is you ask what it's like

It's like um probably one of the most humbling

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things that I've ever been through And at the

same time um I it doesn't shift my personality

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who I am which is almost entirely type A which is

what drives a a farmer is they get out of bed and

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they do things right or wrong all day long That's

who they are Not necessarily because it's all well

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thought through And um when you see that in your

kids it's just this like wow Oh my gosh So that's

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what it's been like for me is is a is a period of

self-reflection in a certain respect And and also

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realizing that I I did some things we did some

things as a couple right Because we put them in

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a place where they're starting um with a lot more

confidence in most cases than we did And um you

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know we talk about those early years prior like

we understood holistic management but we hadn't

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uh fully um integrated it to the farm yet So um

you know that lack of confidence in your decisions

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um that's a real thing you know on the farm And

our kids are matter of fact about so much It's

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like wow And you know so that's it's just awesome

from that standpoint actually I I can only imagine

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how much pride you must you must have with all

of your kids wanting to still be involved in the

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family business and not having that that pull

to a more urban life that you see in so many

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rural locations all around the world And so I I

guess I'm wondering is that by design Like did

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you set out when you started farming and started

raising your kids at the farm Was that part of

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your context that you wanted this to be a family

business or did this kind of happen organically No

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I mean there was a lot of intention around that Um

and we in fact home they're all homeschooled right

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So that was a key part of it in the sense that

and I um you know homeschooling 30 years ago is

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different like homeschooling is supported now but

30 years ago you know when we were talking about

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doing that there there was a lot of push back but

the what we had in our brain is that they could

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probably get a decent education in the school

system Um but the cultural things that we felt

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strongly about would be lost in that conversation

And I think our intuition around that was probably

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pretty good And so um I I joke about it now and

I say "Oh yeah I mean they're brainwashed but I

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did the brainwashing." I mean so um you know and

and what do we mean by that We well um we had a

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we had a very specific set of rules with our kids

and um and it was all sort of um moving towards

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this day and a lot of it came I think came out

of Phyllis's family sort of ideology and then my

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family's ideology and um you know um my I I always

talk about my grandmother who had an influence on

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on the family business I grew up in and um loyalty

there was a very very high value placed on loyalty

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Y and interaction in a way that was not insulting

Now um she was a tough Irish Catholic person and

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insulting other people was fine but you didn't do

that And and and you know we moved that forward

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Like these five um while they can be spicy with

each other a little bit they're very supportive

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of each other and they know that that's a big part

of the job So um of keeping the of the keeping the

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farm working keeping the family working Um and

so yeah grace forgiveness all of those things

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have to play a part in that And I would say

also the piece I think that um I think gets

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downplayed a lot Um they hold each other to a

very high standard and that's not always fair

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and it doesn't have to be Um I they they they

push each other to excel and be the best that

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they can be at things and and they when they mess

up or don't hold that their part of the bargain up

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um they push back on each other It takes Phyllis

and I out of that job because parents um are are

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hurt a certain way and then siblings are hurt a

different way like that that it you know parents

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can wound a a child's soul quite easily So that

interaction has to be somewhat different but the

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siblings you know they're tough on each other and

and they just but in a very loving way Exactly

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They just kind of roll with it with each other

where and I've had to learn that lesson too It's

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just you know I've said to Phyllis parenting is is

actually quite simple because 99 out of a hundred

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times the right answer is shut your mouth Just

just watch And that's the same with the family

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business For for me it was intentional from the

start And you know one of the things so I started

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out as an occupational therapist working with

preschool kids And so kids were always you know

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development that was always kind of on my mind

anyway Um and there were two there were three

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things that I would say contributed to the ethos

Um you know one was there were all kinds of views

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around me about around parenting and parenthood

and it seemed like there was this universal kids

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are great until they turn five Kids are great

until they turn five and it didn't matter Boys

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girls older parents younger parents and I'm like

that's pretty universal Like what is it Because

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kids develop at different stages and ages There's

a lot especially at that age there's a lot of

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wiggle room The only universal is that that's

when they go to school and that's when their

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parenting gets interrupted and that's when their

relationship with their kids gets interrupted And

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you know the other thing was they would the the

parents of older kids you know kids they just

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don't have they just don't have the responsibility

don't have the responsibility And I did a lot of

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noodling about that because it wasn't that people

weren't trying to give their kids responsibility

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What it came down to for me was that you can't you

can't give someone responsibility They either take

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responsibility or they don't And the farm was

a way for them to have a meaningful place at a

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from the start that allowed them to take true

responsibility not responsibility that didn't

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really have any consequences Because sure you

get kids that will take responsibility in a in

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you know a what I'll say is a more structured

from the outside existence right You got to do

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your homework You got to show up to practice

on time You have to do all those things And

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they will take that responsibility and they will

learn responsibility but they don't have to If

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they don't do their homework they might get yelled

at Big deal If they don't show up for practice on

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time they're probably not going to get kicked

off the team And even if they do they're still

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you know those consequences are pretty wimp You

know on a farm you're responsible for you know

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letting us know how the capping is going and you

don't and something dies That's that's actually

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kind of real And you know now they're not afraid

of responsibility They are they're on it They're

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like "Nope I got it." You know I'm out there And

you know Oliver is 17 years old and he is making

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sure that that truck can get up and collect that

milk He's up in the morning with that on his mind

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and we don't have to do anything about it anymore

You know it started out which you wonder as you're

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navigating all that now You know you have little

kids and they're they're nine and you're like look

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this is you know this situation is depending on

you and it's a delicate balance And I won't say

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it was easy You know how much do you give them

so that they don't hate it How much do you give

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them so that they find it rewarding But it can't

be meaningless or it's not rewarding It's it's

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a it's kind of a paradox It's a balance It's a

balance And the third thing was you know we were

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doing some other things when they were little

like you know I always talk about the fact that

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Grace had like a one-hour dance class when she

was little And it occurred to me that that was

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taking from like Friday to Sunday by the time we

geared up and made sure that she had her you know

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her leotard and get ready and pack the snacks for

the other you know And I was like look so there

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it is You you know you have your your kid and

they're going to school They're coming home at

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night but their head is still at school Yeah Just

just to sort of explain that more fully Bobby what

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we learned very quickly that we weren't going to

do all of those extracurricular activities Like

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if we tried to pull that off and do everything as

some parents do and I I give them a lot of credit

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for trying but we were we tried to do a few like

things off the farm and with five kids we like it

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this was very obvious this was not going to work

to us like right away I could only imagine I mean

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you've got cows that need to be milked twice a day

and you've got a business that needs to be run let

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alone adding in soccer practices and recital and

you know like all the other things that people

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seem to overload their kids' schedules with Yes So

we tried to make this as meaningful and fulfilling

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as we could and fun and fun and with always the

idea that this was also a trick to be able to let

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them know you're not locked in honestly right This

we're not like we're dairy we're a dairy farming

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family You're going to dairy farm Your kids are

going to dairy We did not do that either you know

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whether it's a dairy farm whether it's agurism

whether you decide to build houses on it you

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know whatever your set of you know we're giving

you a set of resources and you're going to need

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to decide what your life's going to look like

and and that's what you know that was actually

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a big part of of our message and it was that one

took a long time for them to understand Yeah So

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like you're not you're not prescribing specific

actions that they need to take in life Rather

00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:58.480

you're saying this is the context that that drives

our family This is our north star that guides us

00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:06.400

in all that we do and you're a valuable component

of that Make decisions accordingly because we're

00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:11.840

all in this boat together And you know I think

this is where you know what you were saying

00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:17.840

means of production were removed from the holistic

management framework uh with the the third edition

00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:23.200

of the book because the means of production aren't

really relevant Those can change What matters

00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:28.000

is the context that bearing that you're on and

that you stay in line with that bearing because

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:32.320

that's the the quality of life and the future

resource base that you're trying to you know

00:22:32.320 --> 00:22:39.600

bring everyone along with Absolutely Absolutely

And I I think that that along with other things

00:22:39.600 --> 00:22:47.440

I mean we we are thankful for an understanding

of this process all the time because you know as

00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:57.520

Paul said he's watching our kids do things so much

more gracefully and it you know those fundamental

00:22:57.520 --> 00:23:04.720

concepts understand you know that that set of

understanding that you gain if you if you bring

00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:11.760

those in constantly at the ground level with your

kids and you remember to go back to those in that

00:23:11.760 --> 00:23:17.200

sense which is reminding them look yes I know you

know you don't have to decide if you want to be a

00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:26.160

dairy farmer right you're you're learning these

skills and they fold back to this underlying set

00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:32.160

of um you know activities and resources and

whatever but really a way of moving through

00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:38.720

the world that now you can you can swap out that

production anywhere Yeah And and I would you know

00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:48.720

this might be somewhat u of a sort of a weird

take on it but I I grew up around my my father

00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:55.760

my uncle my grandfather's Um and the way I talk

about those people is that they they were able to

00:23:55.760 --> 00:24:01.520

do anything Like these guys could do anything

I mean I mean and my grandmother too I mean

00:24:01.520 --> 00:24:06.640

um you know like they could oh we got to fix the

plumbing we got to do some plumbing we got to do

00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:11.600

some electric we got to do some carpentry we got

to do some farming we got to do fix the machine

00:24:11.600 --> 00:24:18.480

Um that kind of universal take on things too has

been part of what I've tried to convince my kids

00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:30.320

like Um and also well read um never stop learning

Um and then um you know the last couple years has

00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:38.560

been a lot of financial and business literacy Like

um that's amazing because that that's not usually

00:24:38.560 --> 00:24:46.400

taught to kids or young adults It's something that

you hear so often I didn't learn about money from

00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:52.000

my parents and now here I am later in life and I

don't know what I'm doing and I wish I would have

00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.880

learned this you know decades ago because that's

ultimately the trick to a lot of these things is

00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:05.440

getting started early Exactly Exactly And and

I mean I don't uh I I would say like to a lot

00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:12.720

of parents just read the room man Like look what's

going on Yeah And um and we've got a lot of people

00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:18.160

who are in their fifth and sixth sixth decade

and they still are making financial decisions

00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:24.720

that are really contrary to their best interest

And it's like um I I just wanted my kids to have

00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:32.560

the ease of their knowledge around money so that

um it didn't have to be an overwhelming stressor

00:25:32.560 --> 00:25:38.160

in their life which is really the shame that I see

for most people like they're always worried about

00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:44.160

money and I I see how destructive it is in their

life and I wish that they had they would make

00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:48.640

different decisions around it so that they didn't

have to be stressed about it so much really is

00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:55.200

what I'm saying and and so you know I wanted that

for my kids I wanted that ease around money Um and

00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:01.280

and that's not that I I wanted them necessarily

to be rich I but I wanted them to have enough of

00:26:01.280 --> 00:26:06.480

a understanding so that they were managing the

financial resources in their life in a way that

00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:12.960

Brooke that created some amount of grace Yeah To

take them out of that victim mentality and instead

00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:18.720

put them in charge where hey I'm a decision maker

here I choose my fate on which path I'm going down

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:26.320

Exactly Exactly So I think we'll get into the

financial aspects of your operation And I know

00:26:26.320 --> 00:26:31.360

there was um some really interesting pieces in

a case study that you put out with 3LM where

00:26:31.360 --> 00:26:36.960

you look at your you know your gross margin uh

compared to like a typical grainfed But before

00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:42.160

we get into all that nuance of your operation

and dairy maybe set the stage for folks let's

00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:47.680

rewind a little bit and go back to how did you

guys get into farming Like what's your backstory

00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:55.200

and how did you end up where you are today All

the way back I mean as far back as you want to

00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:59.840

go Phyllis you already mentioned that you used to

be in occupational therapy and so you know maybe

00:26:59.840 --> 00:27:09.200

let's start somewhere around there It really did

start there um with my work as an OT and seeing

00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:19.120

working with kids with developmental delays and

looking at all kinds of things with all these you

00:27:19.120 --> 00:27:26.560

know precious little kids that were coming in

and one is a twin an identical twin who's got

00:27:26.560 --> 00:27:31.920

some delays that their identical twin doesn't

So you start to say okay well what's going on

00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:37.920

um you know with environmental factors and

epigenetics right And then you read about

00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:46.480

twins that are separated for example Or you just

have a kid that has you know strange you know no

00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:51.840

no red food which isn't actually strange because

we know that but you know really bad day if they

00:27:51.840 --> 00:28:00.960

do So extreme reactions things like that And so

started to to really question all of the things

00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:07.600

that contribute to people's lives outside of

their basic genetics that you know um affect your

00:28:07.600 --> 00:28:15.280

quality of life really Um and meeting Paul and

us deciding well we're going to grow as much of

00:28:15.280 --> 00:28:21.280

our food as we can So we get a couple dairy goats

and some chickens to lay eggs and then we raise

00:28:21.280 --> 00:28:28.000

some pigs and I got a couple draft horses because

I'm a you know just love them And we're meeting

00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:33.040

people at the we're going to the fair for the week

you know as on the exhibit and meeting all kinds

00:28:33.040 --> 00:28:37.280

of other people that are growing their food and

homesteading and things like that And just really

00:28:37.280 --> 00:28:45.200

kind of getting back toward you know an existence

that takes a little bit more control over your own

00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:54.000

destiny that way especially I guess around food

Um and you know he was sort of on the corporate

00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:04.240

beat which was really affecting his health Um and

you know here I am naive I'm what 25 And I'm like

00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:14.800

well then you should quit your job if it makes

you sick He's like what But but he did And so we

00:29:14.800 --> 00:29:23.440

decided to start um raising you know he he went

back to sort of a bigger love in his life which

00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:30.640

is he's an amazing carpenter and he's he started

doing work for people um renovating their their

00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:36.240

dream homes in a sense and was he was very very

good at it because he loved it and and he's super

00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:47.440

smart Um and I we we were married and I stayed

home with the first two babies and as we you know

00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:53.280

then we said "Okay well what about what about raw

milk What about a family cow What about raising a

00:29:53.280 --> 00:30:00.880

couple of beef cows?" And it just started started

to just get bigger and bigger And then we naively

00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:08.960

thought well if we get some dairy cows we might

be able to run enough cash through this thing Yeah

00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:17.040

there was another piece there And that's Bobby I I

having grown up in a family business And and in in

00:30:17.040 --> 00:30:23.120

those days they didn't like work work life balance

was uh would have like if I had that conversation

00:30:23.120 --> 00:30:28.080

with my uncles and grandparents they we would have

laughed ourselves out of the room like what are

00:30:28.080 --> 00:30:34.960

you talking about We don't talk about that Um you

know you work till you can't you literally can't

00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:41.280

work anymore And they were very very ambitious

people because two a generation my grandmother

00:30:41.280 --> 00:30:48.240

frankly her mother died at 17 in childbirth of my

grandmother like they were Irish immigrants like

00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:55.760

that it was heavily imprint imprinted on my family

that um ambition is what keeps you out of out of

00:30:55.760 --> 00:31:02.240

trouble and so you don't you don't find excuses

for not getting things done So I have a work ethic

00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:08.480

that needs like management almost in a sense and

um and I was leaving at 5 in the morning getting

00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:14.640

home at 7:30 8:00 at night and um with the first

two were already alive been sitting grace and I

00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:21.680

never saw him because I worked I worked a minimum

of six days a week and um and we still we had a

00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:27.680

small bee herd and and hogs and you know so I

was at home right and so raising two kids and

00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:35.040

all the animals and Paul's out at work Oh my god

My grandparents make this mistake and and um I'm

00:31:35.040 --> 00:31:40.000

not going to make it We're going to we're going to

figure I'm going to apply this insane work ethic

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:46.880

to something right here right next to our kids

right on top of what we're trying to provide for

00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:53.600

So that was why farming commercially became like

this option because for me because I I just said

00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:59.600

well what if you know what if we could do this In

fact we talked about this a lot What if we could

00:31:59.600 --> 00:32:05.760

just break even What if we could break even

What if what if we could make enough money to

00:32:05.760 --> 00:32:12.480

support this very modest lifestyle together and

keep me happy because we were together all day

00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:21.120

Exactly Exactly And um and so that was one of

the original you know I mean you want to talk

00:32:21.120 --> 00:32:29.280

about a context right So that was this was sort

of born out of reality and um at that point I was

00:32:29.280 --> 00:32:34.480

spending five hours a day in the truck and that's

why I would leave and come home so late because

00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:41.840

um I was mo I was in a second home market and it

that was a long way from a land you know I was in

00:32:41.840 --> 00:32:46.720

the wealthy New Yorkers spilling into the Hudson

Valley that's where I was doing a lot of work and

00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:55.760

um and that was yeah two hours and 20 minutes

from where we lived So um yeah um that's so that's

00:32:55.760 --> 00:33:02.320

that's what we were doing when we got our start

and then um you know then the reality of I mean

00:33:02.320 --> 00:33:09.920

the sort of the numbers on dairy farming became

more um well there was a distressed dairy that

00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:16.560

we that was an opportunity for us Yes and we and

we purchased that and were we were on our way and

00:33:16.560 --> 00:33:23.520

um knowing what we know now we wouldn't have

kept the cows because they were also distressed

00:33:23.520 --> 00:33:29.440

they were pretty far gone you know 70% of them had

mastitis that really compromised our milk market

00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:34.560

for example and you know the call rate was very

high and the average age was seven years which

00:33:34.560 --> 00:33:39.040

I don't know if you anything about dairy but

that's like retire way past retirement age for

00:33:39.040 --> 00:33:48.160

dairy cows there were no young cows there were no

bread heers no yearlings and no calves So you you

00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:54.400

know those those folks that are listening that

have any experience in dairy would go "What were

00:33:54.400 --> 00:34:00.240

you thinking?" Well we weren't because we didn't

have experience in dairy But you can't you can't

00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:07.360

start out with startup costs and and not have

any succession any bench in your cows It it's

00:34:07.360 --> 00:34:13.520

just especially in organic dairy because you need

it It's just really I mean we say that but frankly

00:34:13.520 --> 00:34:20.080

you learned a lot Yeah What it did is it forced

us to learn so much so quickly and um and that

00:34:20.080 --> 00:34:29.520

has served us incredibly well and our kids also um

sort of Grace especially saw us work through those

00:34:29.520 --> 00:34:39.440

early cow health feet problems um and fertility

issues and all those things and you know a lot of

00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:49.120

our mentors Jerry Bernetti um Gerald Fry um and

really Buck Chastain people that are gone now

00:34:49.120 --> 00:34:55.760

um by having long long phone conversations having

them to our farm when they so gracious with their

00:34:55.760 --> 00:35:04.640

time getting a chance to travel with Gerald um

and I mean these were the you know we we got to

00:35:04.640 --> 00:35:10.960

learn from these people which was a huge Yeah And

I'm very like I don't take no for an answer Either

00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:15.920

does Phillips Phyllis So we we would you know I

know you don't have time for this conversation but

00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:20.720

can you walk me through this like what do I need

to understand here about soil health and um you

00:35:20.720 --> 00:35:27.520

know I I remember a certain conversation about our

soils and and the cattle and with Jerry Bernetti

00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:32.560

and I and we got engaged and it was four and a

half hours later that I hung up the phone and I

00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:38.400

and I had been scribbling down notes the entire

conversation I still have those notes by the

00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:46.160

way And so you know we didn't know that you didn't

like call up the highowered consultant and not ask

00:35:46.160 --> 00:35:56.000

them for answers We just did it We didn't have any

So we had no uh you know we can't pay for this but

00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:02.960

will you help us And thankfully all these people

were very gracious with their time And obviously

00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:11.520

Allan is that same way I mean he just he helped us

uh understand so much and um honestly I always say

00:36:11.520 --> 00:36:17.680

there was you know if we didn't have those mentors

and if I didn't we didn't meet um Laura and Tim

00:36:17.680 --> 00:36:24.400

Joseph and sort of been on that ground floor of

Maple Hill as a market um and we didn't learn

00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:30.080

and we didn't fully engage and learn holistic

management we would not be farming today I mean

00:36:30.080 --> 00:36:40.000

it's just that simple you can't um there's so many

you know it's not for me it was not learning it

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:48.960

was unlearning is what kept me alive because I I

thought I knew so much about businesses and the

00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:56.480

way they they essentially operate and I did you

did I had a lot of experience in that um but it

00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:04.560

wasn't as applicable to this as I thought And

um and that's and and I was constantly sort

00:37:04.560 --> 00:37:11.840

of driving off that cliff in the sense because

I was taking a very uh linear linear approach

00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:19.520

to it Exactly And and so yeah I mean I don't know

if that's I don't know if that explanation really

00:37:19.520 --> 00:37:23.760

makes sense to me but you have the luxury of

being linear in other businesses to be frank

00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:30.720

Yes And you don't agriculture Can you speak

more to that unlearning of you know everything

00:37:30.720 --> 00:37:36.800

that you unlearned coming from traditional

business What were some of the things that

00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:44.640

you had to unlearn and what did that transition

to I have one Yeah sure Go ahead I have one too

00:37:44.640 --> 00:37:55.760

The idea of a deadline and it when once you're in

agriculture you understand why it's a dead line

00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:05.440

Before that it's meaningless Well so so yeah

I mean for me it was it was the um and and

00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:10.560

and I and now it please don't take this as an

oversimplification of the rest of the business

00:38:10.560 --> 00:38:19.680

world because that's not what I mean by this But

um in a lot a lot of the time in um dollar in

00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:28.320

dollar out like you know capital investment capex

in the business um and you know you you sit you

00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:36.800

got your Excel file you've got your your your next

three three years uh projected um it all makes

00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:47.680

it it makes a lot of sense right um But a but a

spreadsheet doesn't have fertility and biology and

00:38:47.680 --> 00:38:57.280

um a lot of the things that are necessary to

understand in the spreadsheet Right So I was doing

00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:04.480

things um spending hard-earned dollars and frankly

money that we had from our other I call it our

00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:15.200

other life uh on trying to get the fertility of

the farm started and um in in in in ways that were

00:39:15.200 --> 00:39:23.200

not productive because I didn't understand frankly

the four ecosystem processes I didn't understand

00:39:23.200 --> 00:39:35.440

um uh that I had a resource conversion issue Um

and um and so you know once I sort of got inside

00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:45.200

of those things our dollars were um a lot more

were applied in a much more profound manner And

00:39:45.200 --> 00:39:52.640

um you know that's you know that's the thing

about I've watched very very wealthy people

00:39:52.640 --> 00:39:59.360

um go broke farming um and and that and and that

is because they do not learn that piece They do

00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:05.440

not get to the point where they're beginning

to understand that there you know in fact I've

00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:11.280

said to people there is no amount of wealth that

farming can't remove you from if you don't learn

00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:18.560

holistic management Yeah What I'm thinking is that

you know you have a finite amount of resources in

00:40:18.560 --> 00:40:24.320

front of you but then you have an infinite number

of possibilities ahead of you in terms of things

00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:30.400

you could do or get distracted by or paths

you could go down And if you're not careful

00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:37.200

you're going to expend that finite amount of

resources whether that's time or money or forage

00:40:37.200 --> 00:40:42.480

You're gonna spend those resources perhaps chasing

the wrong things if you don't have that clarity

00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:51.840

of where you're going and why Yeah Exactly I mean

the the the whole idea that everything brings you

00:40:51.840 --> 00:41:02.160

to supporting and um expanding enhancing your

future ability to keep doing what you love and

00:41:02.160 --> 00:41:11.840

want around you that future resource base that's

really like that brings it all home because you

00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:17.680

know you can I call it a throughput model right

and and dairy is classic they they've managed

00:41:17.680 --> 00:41:23.600

to turn a sector of agriculture into a very

linear business-like model in a sense right you

00:41:23.600 --> 00:41:31.760

need to be a good buyer and you know they they

can't escape it 100% but still you know you're

00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:38.800

always pushing towards well I'll find a better

quality corn I'll find you know a more efficient

00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:45.600

milk system You know you're you're a better

purchaser You're making those Excel line items

00:41:45.600 --> 00:41:53.440

more efficient But all you're doing is pushing it

off to somebody else Yeah And I would say in dairy

00:41:53.440 --> 00:42:02.240

um you know I it really comes it came down to this

for me is is um it's the answer almost always on

00:42:02.240 --> 00:42:08.720

dairy farms is milking more cows Yeah No matter

the problem no matter the problem The answer is

00:42:08.720 --> 00:42:14.800

always well how many milk in 200 You probably

ought to go to 250 You probably ought to go 300

00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:20.320

Um and now of course these guys are well you're

at 6,000 you probably ought to go to 10 you know

00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:25.200

and it borrow more money It makes perfect sense

when you look at the linear financial business

00:42:25.200 --> 00:42:32.720

model which is always the expansion of debt always

trying to skim a smaller mor smaller margin offer

00:42:32.720 --> 00:42:39.120

a offer a larger amount of cash throughput So it

it really doesn't matter You know the the answer

00:42:39.120 --> 00:42:46.880

is always more cows The problem is that there's

no there is no end to that mechanism being your

00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:56.800

really your only tool you know and graphed just

it cuts that right off at the knees You mean you

00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:03.120

you are now actually in in control of your own

resource base and those other larger dairies Yes

00:43:03.120 --> 00:43:09.680

I know they they um it doesn't even have to be

larger dairies Um but as soon as a large amount

00:43:09.680 --> 00:43:15.920

of what you're bringing through your dairy is

is able to be pushed off to somebody else you

00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:22.960

know you you you move closer towards that linear

model and you get more dangerously you know down

00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:29.200

that road Grass-fed dairy you know your your

grass is right here Your cows have to go get

00:43:29.200 --> 00:43:37.280

it and and every other day you see the result

of that in your in your paycheck you know Can

00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:44.240

can you speak to some of those um those aspects of

the the gross margin the the differences between

00:43:44.240 --> 00:43:51.680

you know your typical grain-fed conventional

dairy and then grass-fed and honestly grass-fed

00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:55.520

holistically managed because as we know you know

there's there's grass-fed done properly and then

00:43:55.520 --> 00:43:59.600

there there can be grass-fed done poorly Not

all grass-fed operations are made the same

00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:04.960

Um I know you guys have gone through those

transitions starting from a more conventional

00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:13.760

dairy approach feeding organic grain to becoming

100% grass-fed but then kind of honing in on your

00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:19.440

land management going from a more traditional

rotational grazing to holistic plan grazing So

00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:25.120

there's been some transitions and in doing so

your margins have changed significantly So can

00:44:25.120 --> 00:44:31.440

you speak to I mean maybe what some of those

changes were and the decisions you've made

00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:39.680

along the way and that how that helps your your

profitability Sure Um so you know we talk about

00:44:39.680 --> 00:44:46.640

um in in our world is kind of these pillars

that we depend on um that sort of build our

00:44:46.640 --> 00:44:56.400

our production model And um so you know grass

management um being able to graze in a way that

00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:03.440

um keeps us from feeding high quality or

high value feed for as many days a year

00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:09.440

as possible Right So um and when I say that

I mean I'm sort of directing that towards the

00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:13.920

the absolute understanding of the resource that

you're managing and then and then the planning

00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:25.920

of the grazing Right So um prior to doing that

um uh pasture though we believed it was central

00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:33.760

um to our approach it was always being managed

and and and therefore productive in a way that

00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:40.560

was underwhelming as far as the impact on our

finances And um we you know because we teach a

00:45:40.560 --> 00:45:47.920

lot of this now we've got slides that sort of

show um even a small change um which is a week

00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:56.560

or two or three extension in your grazing system

has profound impact on um uh you know for a small

00:45:56.560 --> 00:46:05.360

berry $500 a day Well three weeks that now you're

approaching a margin in in dairy you know So

00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:13.120

um yeah And then the and then the I would say

another big understanding um for us was the right

00:46:13.120 --> 00:46:21.120

kind of cow to go and do that And so um you know

dairy is so fraught with um single trait selection

00:46:21.120 --> 00:46:26.800

And in other words cows are just selected for

for mill production and they can they can be

00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:32.720

um they can be um they can look like almost

anything be any color be any breed etc But if

00:46:32.720 --> 00:46:40.000

they're a heavy producer they sort of end end up

being part of the selection process and um the

00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:46.240

bulls that come from those kind of cows etc etc

And one of the things that we came to very quickly

00:46:46.240 --> 00:46:53.120

um was that selling more milk was not going to

necessarily make this um work better Um it had

00:46:53.120 --> 00:46:59.120

to be measured on a per acre uh basis And maybe we

shouldn't be looking at just fluid milk Maybe we

00:46:59.120 --> 00:47:06.960

should be looking at pounds of fat um produced

uh sort of energy corrected milk if you will

00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:17.760

um looking at it um in other words pounds of cow

acres that we're grazing um optimizing rather

00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:25.920

rather than maximizing milk production And and

that is such a brain breaker because everything

00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:35.200

in dairy like is more milk like every conversation

and and and when you and of course we came into

00:47:35.200 --> 00:47:44.720

this without um the dairy experience So we were

always struck by like how every conversation was

00:47:44.720 --> 00:47:52.880

how do we make more milk when you know I had a

very good friend who milked 25 cows and when the

00:47:52.880 --> 00:48:00.480

organic milk price dropped Bobby he he stopped he

he went to 15 cows and this guy had been at this a

00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:06.400

very very long time and I said to him I said why

would you do that like what are you what are you

00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:12.080

doing he said well if I'm losing a little bit of

money on each cowpole What do I want to milk more

00:48:12.080 --> 00:48:21.760

of them for And I went "Oh it was such a and and

so I mean I kind of carried that forward into our

00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:27.840

approach which was okay the right cow the right

pasture management." And then honestly in the in

00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:34.320

the last few years it's been sort of vigorously

understanding the finances of what we're doing

00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:44.720

and from a depreciation standpoint and also um

understanding the entirety of high quality feed

00:48:44.720 --> 00:48:52.560

In other words so much of grass-fed if you so much

of the feed making aspects of it and people people

00:48:52.560 --> 00:48:56.720

have trouble with this because they're they first

question we get a lot of the time is why don't

00:48:56.720 --> 00:49:01.440

you just pasture them all the time and you know

I mean we started the conversation there I mean

00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:05.760

we're under a foot and a half of snow with ice

underneath it and it's 5 degrees right now So

00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:11.440

we have to feed high quality feed to make milk

in the winter and and understanding how to do

00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:18.560

that from the a resources applied standpoint

So s you know we we can teach somebody through

00:49:18.560 --> 00:49:25.200

a forage test now and we can and we we do we

do look at all of those things and those you

00:49:25.200 --> 00:49:31.040

know you're not you're not saying goodbye to that

world because you understand holistic management

00:49:31.040 --> 00:49:37.360

you know it's not a it's not holistic management

is not an invitation to not fully understand the

00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:43.120

te technical aspects of the farming you're doing

And I think that's that's a thing that I've I've

00:49:43.120 --> 00:49:50.880

seen in some early uh farmers early adoption of

holistic management They think it gets them out

00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:56.720

of some of these other jobs But what it actually

does is that it it teaches you the importance of

00:49:56.720 --> 00:50:01.600

those technical things and how to apply them to

the farm in a way that's more intelligent other

00:50:01.600 --> 00:50:09.440

than be you know how how is this going to um uh

they don't it's no longer a standalone problem

00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:14.640

It's it's actually built into the part of the

context and and you understand exactly what it's

00:50:14.640 --> 00:50:19.440

doing for you It's the I mean Phyllis would say

it's the weak link It's understanding your weak

00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:26.000

link and then and then applying it back to the

you know your overall approach to the farm And I

00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:32.880

I when you said um you know what do I want to milk

more cows for Most dairy farmers have to milk more

00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:42.640

cows because their their linear cash flow depends

on it Right Right And you know Corey I call him a

00:50:42.640 --> 00:50:46.960

closet holistic manager you know I mean there's

people that are like you you know that they kind

00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:52.400

of get holistic management but they don't really

you know they have they haven't really delved into

00:50:52.400 --> 00:51:01.520

it to really fully try it on which for me was was

phenomenal because and it took years to really

00:51:01.520 --> 00:51:06.400

still there's more I'm learning about it all the

time but it it even took a couple of years for

00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:12.400

me I think in retrospect to fully wrap my brain

around a lot of it Um but what it allowed me to do

00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:18.000

was look back at all of the things that had worked

and understand why they had worked and look at

00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:24.960

the things that hadn't worked and understand why

they hadn't worked And you know the idea that that

00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:31.440

um I mean it really does You don't you don't

get yourself out of any of those tools You

00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:36.960

just wield them better right All tools are on

the table I love that one you know you just

00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:42.800

you just have more tools and you use them more

appropriately and you don't you don't get lulled

00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:48.640

into thinking that paper dollars are actually a

resource right the sources and uses You got to go

00:51:48.640 --> 00:51:55.200

right through that you know that idea and what are

you using it for and where did it come from is so

00:51:55.200 --> 00:52:02.640

important because it completely changes financial

management to include all of the things that it

00:52:02.640 --> 00:52:09.680

should instead of just being able to balance your

checkbook or make your Excel numbers work you know

00:52:09.680 --> 00:52:15.920

Um and we had we just had it was this was really

interesting for me because we just had a neighbor

00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:26.400

and we you know tried we Anyway he was looking

at um trying to improve a newly purchased farm

00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:32.960

with grazing um some steers and he said you know

I don't really see how this is working out And he

00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:39.280

showed us all of his numbers with to feed you know

labor etc etc And and he had a little bit of a

00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:48.160

loss on each steer at the end of this Excel $7 an

animal and it seems and you know he said I don't

00:52:48.160 --> 00:52:53.360

see it and this was not somebody from agriculture

this is somebody helping his friend out and we

00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:59.200

said well when we first we had had met with them

three times right this we're trying to get them

00:52:59.200 --> 00:53:05.360

through this and the first thing we said is you

got to let us know what what you're in this for we

00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:13.200

got you know you got to tell us your context and

he in a he said you know well we want to we want

00:53:13.200 --> 00:53:18.160

to really improve this farm and we want it to be

more productive and we want to be regenerative and

00:53:18.160 --> 00:53:25.840

he had all the buzzwords and we were like right it

was awesome Um and then fast forward and we said

00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:31.440

okay what where in your number is the regenerate

is is this soil health that you're getting from

00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:38.240

grazing these cattle because what you know for us

we we look at we've got a hoop barn for example of

00:53:38.240 --> 00:53:45.120

open pack housing for our cows and you know we

spend a bunch of money um on straw and bedding

00:53:45.120 --> 00:53:51.120

and things like that and you know tilling it

composting it and three times a year we have

00:53:51.120 --> 00:54:00.560

unbelievable fertile izer that comes out of that

pack So how much does it cost to run the the pack

00:54:00.560 --> 00:54:05.360

What's the value of that fertilizer You have to

put that and you can translate everything into

00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:12.640

these you know more familiar financial tools if

you want to But honestly it seems like the room

00:54:12.640 --> 00:54:17.040

is endless at a certain point because there

are so many co- benefits to things that you

00:54:17.040 --> 00:54:27.360

do And I think that really is some of what is in

that difference in financial viability with just

00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:34.720

following that prescriptive look buy a cow You

know you've got so many stalls try to produce

00:54:34.720 --> 00:54:42.480

as milk much milk as you can from that spot and

you know that'll give you the be the the biggest

00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:48.800

gross income right Do I have that right and you

know try to minimize your costs and that's really

00:54:48.800 --> 00:54:59.680

it to okay wait a minute but when we do a good job

grazing and we we improve that actual soil health

00:54:59.680 --> 00:55:06.720

we get an ability to um first of all produce

milk without having to bring them feed when we

00:55:06.720 --> 00:55:14.240

have when we have an ability to take high quality

highly digestible feed from land that's actually

00:55:14.240 --> 00:55:21.760

healthy How come we feed um you know three bells

for every five of the stuff that comes off of poor

00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:26.960

ground Plus they're the cows are healthier and

they milk better So you've got a you know that

00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:33.280

for us the cows are a product conversion right How

well is your herd of cows produced you know taking

00:55:33.280 --> 00:55:39.680

your your forages and or grain because I you know

I firmly believe it doesn't matter whether you're

00:55:39.680 --> 00:55:45.760

grass-fed organic conventional holistic management

will revolutionize your world if you understand

00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:52.080

it right So quality of the grain is low That's

kind of a no-brainer but it's it's kind of bigger

00:55:52.080 --> 00:56:02.160

than that because you start to see how it impacts

different portions of your of your you know that

00:56:02.160 --> 00:56:08.000

that chain of that financial chain Yeah I mean one

of the things I say to new grass-fed guys is that

00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:12.640

you're going to earn the right to profitability

and and and that's through the understanding

00:56:12.640 --> 00:56:18.880

of these things we're discussing Bobby and then

application of them Um so as the fertility of the

00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:26.720

farm grows uh through good management um pasture

and or your crop land and your cows and your cows

00:56:26.720 --> 00:56:32.160

and the and you get a better more manageable

group with not outliers that you're choosing

00:56:32.160 --> 00:56:44.080

based on production only Um as that becomes more

cohesive um the margin goes from basically nothing

00:56:44.080 --> 00:56:51.840

um to very high performing grass-fed farms are

over net 30% Now we have a group of mature farms

00:56:51.840 --> 00:57:00.400

that are netting over 30% Which is pretty unheard

of in Yeah And the standard in say organic dairy

00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:09.600

is what like 3% is that right Oh probably Yeah

maybe Maybe five I mean maybe less Yeah it's in

00:57:09.600 --> 00:57:18.000

the small single digits versus the 30% that you're

seeing in your co-op Yeah And um I would say

00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:24.080

they're in a worse place almost the organic guys

now because of the cost of the grain are probably

00:57:24.080 --> 00:57:31.840

in a tougher spot than conventional farms um and

of of equal size But conventional farms actually

00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:38.320

have a higher margin um because they they have um

they're able their grain is cheaper it's higher

00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:45.120

quality and they're able to drive production with

it Milk I mean grain makes milk There's no but um

00:57:45.120 --> 00:57:49.840

you know and I don't make any moral or ethical

judgments around that stuff I just I I work

00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:54.880

with dairy farmers every day and they're they're

all good people try and figure it out you know

00:57:55.520 --> 00:58:01.920

walk us through the transition from feeding

grain whether it's uh conventional or organic

00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:08.480

to to moving into 100% grass-fed My understanding

is there's somewhat of a yield drag for the first

00:58:08.480 --> 00:58:13.280

couple years in terms of production per cow but

you know what does that transition look like for

00:58:13.280 --> 00:58:20.240

someone that's moving to 100% grass-fed dairy Well

the the the first issue is that you're dealing

00:58:20.240 --> 00:58:29.840

your your herd um their rins were developed on um

grain Um so you've got an epigenetic impact on the

00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:37.120

rin I always tell uh startups that um you're not

going to be actually grass-fed till you're you're

00:58:37.120 --> 00:58:46.000

milking a group of cows who have rins that were

developed on milk and grasses Um and that so the

00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:52.720

And you know there's a lot of human health um

information in regards to um what grain um does to

00:58:52.720 --> 00:59:00.960

our digestive system And I would say it's probably

more profound for um cattle in the sense that

00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:09.360

um you know these are um sort of in many cases

processed in a in a very industrial approach and

00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:14.640

um and there's a lot of science around that too

There is there's a ton of science around it um you

00:59:14.640 --> 00:59:24.720

know room in health Um and and so understanding um

you know um understanding that piece which is um

00:59:24.720 --> 00:59:31.920

until you have your grass-fed herd if you will um

you're going to be in a transitional phase So um

00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:38.000

you know um what we try to do is encourage these

farmers to stop feeding their calves grain right

00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:43.840

away Um and then the new calves that are born

don't feed them grain at all Give them more milk

00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:50.160

The natural more milk for longer More milk for

longer The natural concentrate that you control

00:59:50.160 --> 00:59:56.560

on the farm Um that's your milk till you put it in

the bulk tank So put more of it into those calves

00:59:56.560 --> 01:00:05.760

Get them through puberty on milk and high quality

grass Not not any old hay bale Really well-made um

01:00:05.760 --> 01:00:12.320

bage and and high quality dry hay Um make it your

business to understand forages right Because you'd

01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:19.360

be amazed how many people really don't understand

forages and their role in nutrition Um yeah And

01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:29.040

then get and then get that um that herd developed

that way The second piece is um uh most organic

01:00:29.040 --> 01:00:35.440

guys at when you or in conventional guys they're

looking at a percentage of total dry matter from

01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:43.680

pasture that's quite low So in order to move to

grass-fed which is OPT standard requires 60% dry

01:00:43.680 --> 01:00:52.800

matter during the pasture season 150 days 150 days

right so the you know learning how to um to manage

01:00:52.800 --> 01:01:01.360

pasture so that that that can happen um is is

is a key part of that transition and then um I

01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:12.000

would say from there the deeper aspects um sort

of come into um play and and you know um but if

01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:16.800

they get those two pieces and learn how to graze

Well that's what I'm saying They got to learn how

01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:21.360

to graze and they got to learn that they're going

to they're going to create their own herd right

01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:29.280

Um and you know so I mean that's what all of the

education that we do with grass-fed guys sort of

01:01:29.280 --> 01:01:36.800

works around is is those those main pillars and

then we drive deep um and and try to get them

01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:43.440

to do their to take on the lifelong learning that

frankly because I say this all the time grass-fed

01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:49.760

dairy is you know we've made it we're we're round

in first base We're probably going to slide in

01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:57.840

the second here shortly as a group right But we

got a long to go and and and a lot of it is in

01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:07.440

uh soil health um understanding um how to better

manage the resources and and I think um you know

01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:16.720

market adoption is coming way quicker than the

farmers are able can keep up with So that like

01:02:16.720 --> 01:02:25.840

if you look forward the next 30 years it grass-fed

milk I said in 20110 10 that grass-fed milk will

01:02:25.840 --> 01:02:32.480

eventually be the milk that that people drink and

I and we are going to we are going there if and so

01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:41.040

the opportunity is huge um and for new farming and

and startup farms because the because the consumer

01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:47.760

is supporting this I mean we're getting mid40

uh pay prices and as high as low 50s from other

01:02:47.760 --> 01:02:56.720

from many markets There's a lot of opportunity out

there Um but you can it where it sits we we have

01:02:56.720 --> 01:03:05.200

to really support our startups because um it's

those first five years um that are that are you're

01:03:05.200 --> 01:03:10.400

vulnerable because if you don't sort of learn many

of the things that we're touching out here um and

01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:17.440

you just apply sort of basic dairy knowledge um

you can run yourself ragged and run right off a

01:03:17.440 --> 01:03:25.920

cliff because the answer is not in more milk it's

in profitable milk And and so um you know getting

01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:34.880

people to think about um those fertility issues in

is is super um important and and we see it so much

01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:42.880

now in um in you know so much of the regenerative

information and but a lot of that is all sizzle

01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:47.520

no stake right You got to got to take it to the

farm and get people to drive like what does this

01:03:47.520 --> 01:03:51.760

mean Well we're going to ba what it means is

we're in our shoulder seasons we're going to

01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:58.480

bail grace any low fertility part of the pasture

system that you're controlling those resources

01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:03.680

in But but but does that mean I have to take the

bales out there Does that mean I have to you know

01:04:03.680 --> 01:04:09.120

I mean it's going to come up and we all all the we

work through all those things and and and we did

01:04:09.120 --> 01:04:14.720

them out of sheer grit sheer grit and and frankly

stupidity I mean we didn't know what we were doing

01:04:14.720 --> 01:04:19.680

and we and and you and we had to deal with a lot

of the embarrassment of being laughed at all that

01:04:19.680 --> 01:04:26.480

stuff But um you know now we have a pasture system

that runs between 11 and 13% organic matter And

01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:32.400

when you get to that you can be a bad grazer and

there's more grass coming It's just coming There's

01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:38.000

no stopping it Do you know what your organic

matter was when you bought the farm Probably

01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:49.920

two to two to four% And now it's You said 11 11 to

13 Wow Wow That's incredible No you said there you

01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:57.040

know um walk us through because there's a yield

drag and um I love you know Tim Joseph used to say

01:04:57.040 --> 01:05:03.120

the biggest hurdle to transitioning to grass-fed

is right here between the ears And it really is

01:05:03.120 --> 01:05:14.320

that understanding of yes a per cow dip having you

know even more than having maybe dip in production

01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:22.400

There's the understanding around the implications

of that and all of the things that contribute to

01:05:22.400 --> 01:05:30.320

that and are a consequence of that which is

most of the time you need a much smaller cow

01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:37.600

big cows on on grass-fed rations their their

maintenance requirements are too high They they

01:05:37.600 --> 01:05:42.720

physically can't take in And if you're your soil

health and your forage quality and digestibility

01:05:42.720 --> 01:05:50.240

isn't up there they're taking in as much forage

as they possibly can there's not enough energy in

01:05:50.240 --> 01:05:55.360

there to meet their maintenance requirements and

certainly isn't enough to push them into a milk So

01:05:55.360 --> 01:06:00.640

you're changing cow size right You're changing the

the epigenetics of the rin You're changing your

01:06:00.640 --> 01:06:08.400

soil fertility And those are the true economics

of making profitable milk rather than milk volume

01:06:08.400 --> 01:06:14.400

And getting them to switch their brain around do

whatever it takes as cheaply as possible to get

01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:21.280

a high volume per cow into that tank into thinking

about all of these other things that contribute to

01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:28.080

their profitability Yes which is you know pounds

of milk per pound of body weight pounds of milk

01:06:28.080 --> 01:06:34.560

per pound of dry matter in not how much can we

feed her and how much can we get out on the other

01:06:34.560 --> 01:06:43.760

end All of those things are the actual transition

The practical transition is much easier when you

01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:50.080

understand those things Which is why you know

again if we didn't learn holistic management this

01:06:50.080 --> 01:06:56.800

would not have coalesed in our brain fast enough

and well enough to understand how all of those

01:06:56.800 --> 01:07:04.160

complex systems fit together and lend themselves

to a profitable system in your place you know

01:07:04.160 --> 01:07:11.840

given your your set of of tools you know you what

are the people and things and finances and what

01:07:11.840 --> 01:07:16.480

have you got to work with How are you going to

wield that into a profitable system And there

01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:23.920

are these inherent truths right around the way

nature works That's what is the real transition

01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:30.080

And then you're much less concerned with the

yield drop because honestly it's irrelevant

01:07:31.200 --> 01:07:36.960

That's amazing Phyllis you had mentioned it's

important for folks to understand forages and

01:07:36.960 --> 01:07:44.480

their role in nutrition Can you speak more to that

Yeah I think so I'll just get out of the way Um

01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:51.120

probably in general you could say that dairy that

um beef producers um understand this a little bit

01:07:51.120 --> 01:07:59.520

better Maybe that depends on how much if and how

much grain they feed Um but as Paul said you know

01:07:59.520 --> 01:08:04.400

there you can make a lot of milk with grain and

there is a lot of forgiveness in grain The other

01:08:04.400 --> 01:08:10.000

thing about buying grain is you're also buying

a mineral pack right So you're buying energy and

01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:18.960

you're buying minerals So there's this assumption

that the forages that you graze are just sort of

01:08:18.960 --> 01:08:24.720

you know they are what they are right and and

then we can just make it up with a grain scoop

01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:31.840

And you say "Well okay we're going to we're going

to stop feeding grain." It's really important to

01:08:31.840 --> 01:08:37.520

understand the magnitude of the task to

replace that grain with a forage because

01:08:37.520 --> 01:08:49.920

forages are very very reactive to their soil

health So you can walk from one spot on your farm

01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:56.560

where the soil health is high and look at that

set of diverse species or not so or whatever is

01:08:56.560 --> 01:09:03.440

growing there and then move to a more remote area

where the soil is you know maybe more played out

01:09:03.440 --> 01:09:11.520

Same set of plants and where you'll have nice

soft dark green leaves on your orchard grass

01:09:11.520 --> 01:09:19.840

behind the barn You'll have a stalk with pitiful

leaves already headed out The weather's the same I

01:09:19.840 --> 01:09:27.280

mean I only walked a few hundred yards right It's

not weather related Same rain same whatever It's

01:09:27.280 --> 01:09:33.760

a stressed plant sending up a seed head early The

difference in the digestibility and the potential

01:09:33.760 --> 01:09:40.720

to keep a a dairy cow that works very hard healthy

and productive You know there's the difference

01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:52.720

right there And I don't think that people really

understand um that you know the the plant will

01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:59.520

respond to soil health in ways that either lends

it to be more more digestible to Paul's part or

01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:04.320

not And right to not get too deep in the weeds

I would say that people starting out that want

01:10:04.320 --> 01:10:13.200

to understand that then um they would they would

want to um essentially um read and interact with

01:10:13.200 --> 01:10:24.720

anyone they can who can explain uh lignen and

digestibility and then um get um there's lots

01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:31.680

of information from and I'm not you know I'm not

necessarily a proponent of all the lane grants

01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:39.680

But get the best information you can on forage and

then read it all and then forget it all And then

01:10:39.680 --> 01:10:47.040

um learn to understand um the difference between

your tests on your best soils and your worst soils

01:10:47.040 --> 01:10:54.560

and do a little testing there and look at how

those those feeds are growing and testing and

01:10:54.560 --> 01:11:01.440

feeding So uh recently I had a young man that sent

me four forage tests and he said "I I'm going to

01:11:01.440 --> 01:11:08.640

buy some feed from New York." He's in Pennsylvania

I tell me which one to buy And you have four lots

01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:15.280

And I got four lots to choose from And they had uh

four tests And I said "I want you to buy a little

01:11:15.280 --> 01:11:20.080

bit out of all four lots on your first load." On

your first load And I want you to stick them in

01:11:20.080 --> 01:11:26.480

front of cows because the forage test is only is

not the whole story And the college will tell you

01:11:26.480 --> 01:11:34.080

it is The scientists will tell you that it is It's

not And so we this is another one of those areas

01:11:34.080 --> 01:11:39.600

of science where we know as humans just enough

to be dangerous but we have to work with what

01:11:39.600 --> 01:11:45.840

we know So I'm not saying we shouldn't get forg

tested and we shouldn't continue to try to learn

01:11:45.840 --> 01:11:53.760

Um but it's like our understanding of sequestering

carbon It's in its infant stages and um you know

01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:59.120

uh I we have been carbon testing the farm and

we've been watching what happens as we graze and

01:11:59.120 --> 01:12:06.960

or cut it for hay and or do other activities So

it's um you know all of this stuff is not there

01:12:06.960 --> 01:12:11.680

is no silver bullet there You're not going to

get a very clear definitive answer from any of it

01:12:11.680 --> 01:12:16.880

What you're going to get is hints and and you're

going to learn to sneak up on things that actually

01:12:16.880 --> 01:12:23.680

work and and that's you know I know that's not

very gratifying to someone who's who's laying

01:12:23.680 --> 01:12:30.720

laying it all on the line in a transition but

um you know that's a big part of it which is

01:12:30.720 --> 01:12:39.360

um trying to keep up And um and then uh the other

piece that's broadly missing in in um and has to

01:12:39.360 --> 01:12:45.760

be in sort of congratulated is farmers that are

observ that have strong observational skills

01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:53.760

I I tell um trust your gut Get out there and walk

around in the pasture And and you know Joel Ston's

01:12:53.760 --> 01:12:59.600

right about this one Don't drive the quad through

the pasture Get off the quad Walk around in the

01:12:59.600 --> 01:13:07.040

pasture and sit down Spend a little time there

Listen watch the cows graze Look at your plant

01:13:07.040 --> 01:13:13.840

spacing Look at the uh activity around the manure

pads um learn to understand that ecosystem and

01:13:13.840 --> 01:13:19.120

what impacts it and improves it Um you know one

of the cool things about bail grazing through the

01:13:19.120 --> 01:13:27.120

years is we came to this in our in our area we set

the bales 50 60 feet apart And that's because two

01:13:27.120 --> 01:13:33.040

years later those green spots that are created

by the bail grazing have grown to each other and

01:13:33.040 --> 01:13:39.200

now all the grass looks healthy and productive

And that's obviously the microbiology But it

01:13:39.200 --> 01:13:46.960

took us that was just one of those epiphies by by

literally just getting out there and looking and

01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:53.360

um you know now you know we get that question

almost every time when we talk about bail grazing

01:13:53.360 --> 01:13:58.960

and it's not and that didn't come out of some

like huge data set at a university that came

01:13:58.960 --> 01:14:08.320

out with Paul and Phyllis going huh look at

that will you [Music] go ahead Phyis well you

01:14:08.320 --> 01:14:15.360

Well to bring it and and once once you start

to get your head wrapped around the ecosystem

01:14:15.360 --> 01:14:20.400

process right you learn holistic management

you're like um obviously minerals are cycling

01:14:20.400 --> 01:14:29.600

here And that that's very important in forage

quality but the energy that's required and and

01:14:29.600 --> 01:14:36.240

I think as dairy farmers we're acutely aware of

energy requirements especially in 100% grass-fed

01:14:36.240 --> 01:14:44.640

The energy requirements are high in in our dairy

cows And if you if you look at rin function you

01:14:44.640 --> 01:14:52.240

understand that a healthy cell wall an

an unstressed you know lignon actually

01:14:52.240 --> 01:14:59.920

um binds up and makes unavailable the rest of the

cell wall the cellulose portion of the cell wall

01:14:59.920 --> 01:15:06.240

And you you can actually be in an energy deficit

if your forage qualities are too poor And I don't

01:15:06.240 --> 01:15:13.280

I don't think that um that people really really

get that because if you've got any other lever

01:15:13.280 --> 01:15:19.840

that you can dump into the system and make up for

that energy you don't need to learn it right And

01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:27.040

that's where grain comes in That's why you know

uh poor pasture management works with grain and

01:15:27.040 --> 01:15:35.600

low fertility pastures work with grain because

it's just filler And um and it I this frustrates

01:15:35.600 --> 01:15:41.120

people new to this because they think "Well I've

got the PLA pastor all split up I'm opening and

01:15:41.120 --> 01:15:46.320

closing the gates I'm moving the cattle when

you tell me to." And and uh and I'm getting

01:15:46.320 --> 01:15:51.360

a good trample And they start you know I'm just

going to jump in because one of the things that

01:15:51.360 --> 01:15:58.560

we are we are frustrated with and maybe because

we saw it in ourselves as we worked through the

01:15:58.560 --> 01:16:05.120

process and I really mean it it's years to really

get your mind around Don't stop when you you know

01:16:05.120 --> 01:16:10.720

and you're you're like "Yeah context." No you

need to really understand what a context is

01:16:10.720 --> 01:16:18.240

Like dive deep into that That's not just like

I want to write down my my my ideal existence

01:16:18.240 --> 01:16:26.080

It it is but it's much more than that right what

um you know p push all the way through so that

01:16:26.080 --> 01:16:31.680

you really you really wrap your mind around how

these processes work because it's the only thing

01:16:31.680 --> 01:16:39.840

that that's going to bring you full circle to to I

don't know why yeah well I think you're getting at

01:16:39.840 --> 01:16:45.600

some of the mindset shifts that are necessary

to be successful and I'm thinking back to the

01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:51.440

the case study that you guys put out a number of

years ago titled Less Stress More Grass and I'll

01:16:51.440 --> 01:16:54.880

link that in the show notes for folks that are

interested in reading that because I think it's

01:16:54.880 --> 01:17:00.480

a wealth of information and you guys get really

detailed on a lot of the specifics Um there was

01:17:00.480 --> 01:17:07.200

one piece in there where you mentioned that you

had to shift your focus from grass utilization

01:17:07.200 --> 01:17:16.480

to forage recovery Tell me about that shift in

perspective and why that matters Ah the unto it

01:17:16.480 --> 01:17:33.520

acceleration Okay Yep There it is Ah so there's

this sort of counterintuitive aspect of planned

01:17:33.520 --> 01:17:44.240

grazing that was a bit of a leap of faith for

me And I got very good at knowing how much dry

01:17:44.240 --> 01:17:56.080

matter was standing and that I could capture

with a polywire for my cow's ration Um and I

01:17:56.080 --> 01:18:01.680

would literally um you know I'd milk the cows

He was always out out making feed and I'd milk

01:18:01.680 --> 01:18:08.560

the cows and then I'd go out and I'd gather up

the poliwire from the previous grazing you know

01:18:08.560 --> 01:18:16.080

every every 12 hours a new spot And then I'd take

a look at what grass was there and I'd pace out

01:18:16.080 --> 01:18:21.520

another area to last them till the next milking

and I could decide if I wanted to take half leave

01:18:21.520 --> 01:18:32.240

half of whatever random species I was looking at

I I will note um which should not be by the way

01:18:32.240 --> 01:18:42.880

And then and I would keep doing that and without

fail I was out of grass in in July not you know

01:18:42.880 --> 01:18:48.080

struggling for maybe another 30 days and pretty

much we went on full feed by mid August which is

01:18:48.080 --> 01:18:58.160

not a very financially viable system and because

what that does is it it's it's managing if you

01:18:58.160 --> 01:19:04.960

translate it directly into holistic management

Overg grazing is a factor of time and not numbers

01:19:04.960 --> 01:19:15.040

That also means it's not a function of dry matter

That's what that's what that means Cow numbers

01:19:15.040 --> 01:19:23.760

equals dry matter How many cows you have and how

much they eat is how much dry matter is there So

01:19:23.760 --> 01:19:30.880

that the the amount of dry matter that's in your

pasture doesn't matter And you would you have to

01:19:30.880 --> 01:19:40.640

see people's heads spin in these grazing seminars

that I do when they when I say you know okay so

01:19:40.640 --> 01:19:45.840

we're going to do we're going to do your relative

quality and we're going to estimate and you know

01:19:45.840 --> 01:19:51.120

so what do you you know do you have any idea how

many days they graze last year or how many bales

01:19:51.120 --> 01:19:55.120

would you get off of it And they're you know they

get all stressed out like they need to get that

01:19:55.120 --> 01:20:00.080

number right I need to know what the dry matter

is so that I can manage this grazing And then I

01:20:00.080 --> 01:20:07.920

go honestly just gap It doesn't really matter

And they're like what And I go it's completely

01:20:07.920 --> 01:20:12.960

irrelevant I'm like well and and sometimes I can

bring them around because I go well it's it's if

01:20:12.960 --> 01:20:18.320

it rains one year and doesn't rain another year

doesn't that swing like by a lot And they're like

01:20:18.320 --> 01:20:22.240

well yeah I'm like well then it doesn't matter

You have no idea what's going to grow in your

01:20:22.240 --> 01:20:27.840

pasture do you I don't know And I say "Well that's

because it doesn't matter You're going to manage

01:20:27.840 --> 01:20:34.960

it anyway What you're going to manage is the

placement of your herd in a way that's going to

01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:42.960

increase your forage Next time around time after

that." And you know the first time I heard about

01:20:42.960 --> 01:20:48.880

plant grazing and you know the guy's talking about

you know so you go around and it's this tall the

01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:53.920

first time and then you come back and it's this

tall and then you you know and I'm like no no

01:20:53.920 --> 01:21:00.640

no You this tall and you come back and it's this

tall and you come back tall It's working in the

01:21:00.640 --> 01:21:07.600

opposite direction And yeah so so that was the one

that was we were going broke right Running out of

01:21:07.600 --> 01:21:16.720

grass So once you really so you you may you know

for me it was that leap of faith I'm like okay I

01:21:16.720 --> 01:21:22.800

get it I understand the recovery piece which is

the first basic piece you need to get your head

01:21:22.800 --> 01:21:28.240

wrapped around in order to learn to graze There

are people who think that's the only piece It's

01:21:28.240 --> 01:21:34.640

not by a long shot Right Time timing behavior

Those are very very important things and the

01:21:34.640 --> 01:21:41.280

time one that's like you well it's actually I

would say maybe timing right your recovery and

01:21:41.280 --> 01:21:49.280

um just sort of a leap of fa the be so one of it

one of the aces in the hole that dairy farmers

01:21:49.280 --> 01:21:54.880

have and poor grazers any anybody who's a poor

grazer if if you're doing a crappy job grazing and

01:21:54.880 --> 01:22:00.880

you're not getting very much of your total annual

production directly from pasture unless your cows

01:22:00.880 --> 01:22:06.240

are dying you have enough feed to feed them the

rest of it you only only one way to go So anything

01:22:06.240 --> 01:22:11.040

that you do better don't worry about it If you

don't have enough if because you're you have

01:22:11.040 --> 01:22:18.000

to be in this pasture now for a week instead of

three days right The dry matter would say you've

01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:24.240

got three days worth of dry matter The recovery

says you got to be here for a week What are you

01:22:24.240 --> 01:22:30.800

gonna do for those other four days Well you're

already bad at it and you got hay so feed hay

01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:37.840

you know that's that's really you know and dairy

farmers definitely have the feet I'm not saying

01:22:37.840 --> 01:22:45.680

it's the only way to move through this Um but

being a grass-fed dairy farmer we we don't really

01:22:45.680 --> 01:22:52.960

we can't buy and sell cows We can't go we need you

know we need to stock destock there There are um I

01:22:52.960 --> 01:22:59.520

think we've got I don't know how many farmers we

could sell probably 250 grass-fed cows right now

01:22:59.520 --> 01:23:06.000

into the market Right A variable stocking rate is

not part of what we do and and it fits in perfect

01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:14.320

So I'm going to sort of what you send out there

as a herb to utilize the better management is a

01:23:14.320 --> 01:23:21.760

source of profit Right If you're sending out uh a

bunch of giant high production conventional cows

01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:27.840

that are going to lay down under the tree when

it gets hot the best management is not going to

01:23:27.840 --> 01:23:37.760

work But if you've got a you know this um sort of

uh uh really spicy group of crossbreads that are

01:23:37.760 --> 01:23:45.120

uh highly efficient converters of that of that

uh pasture into milk and you know with a body

01:23:45.120 --> 01:23:51.200

weight of 1,100 pounds just kind of cows

that they just go out and get the job done

01:23:51.200 --> 01:23:58.000

and breed back and you know uh moderate energy

requirements and very low maintenance requirements

01:23:58.640 --> 01:24:04.800

when couched against their actual production Um

that's a huge source of profit that grass-fed

01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:09.520

guys have to be building towards So they can't

buy and sell cows because they're just there are

01:24:09.520 --> 01:24:18.000

no great like grass-fed cattle are highly sought

after The genetics are poorly understood and so

01:24:18.000 --> 01:24:24.080

yeah I just sort of throw that in at that point

and and and and that is like understanding that

01:24:24.080 --> 01:24:31.040

I mean there was a time when we had a whole bunch

of very large cows and and we got to a point when

01:24:31.040 --> 01:24:38.960

we went grass-fed where we sold those large cows

and um kept all the scrappy little cows that I'm

01:24:38.960 --> 01:24:46.400

talking about And what happened was um our feed

production went or our the amount of feed we were

01:24:46.400 --> 01:24:55.200

feeding went down over 40% But the milk only

went down 20% And we figured out very quickly

01:24:55.200 --> 01:25:01.840

that we were feeding and maintaining a lot of cow

pounds that were not productive So we watch and

01:25:01.840 --> 01:25:06.880

it was about 30% of the herd right in numbers

and cow numbers right We watched those numbers

01:25:06.880 --> 01:25:12.240

through the years and have done a a lot of um

back of the napkin type of math on that stuff

01:25:12.240 --> 01:25:19.680

So you know and some of the early minds the Bonsma

work that Gerald and Beatsman and others have put

01:25:19.680 --> 01:25:30.480

um on paper in books um you know that at 900 to,00

cow um is the most efficient for a grass system So

01:25:30.480 --> 01:25:36.000

um you know you get to a 1400 pound cow she's

typically going to be 20% less efficient than

01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:40.960

a,000 pound cow About five pound percent less

efficient for every 100 pounds of body weight you

01:25:40.960 --> 01:25:49.040

go up from a thousand And so I'm and I'm not when

I say that I'm not saying everybody has to um milk

01:25:49.040 --> 01:25:53.840

a thousand pound cow What I'm saying is that based

on your soil fertility the condition of the farm

01:25:53.840 --> 01:25:59.520

and the your context and yeah your context and the

quality of the grass and all these other questions

01:25:59.520 --> 01:26:06.080

um it is a known fact that a larger cow while

highly associated with milk production you're

01:26:06.080 --> 01:26:12.400

moving towards a cow that will I always say if

you've got 1,800 pounds then they ought to come

01:26:12.400 --> 01:26:18.400

with a grain scoop necklace around their neck

because they're they're not gonna be they're

01:26:18.400 --> 01:26:25.600

not gonna be a grass-fed cow guys Yeah So you know

it it does it folds back into the to the behavior

01:26:25.600 --> 01:26:30.400

piece in one and and it folds into your whole

under management right What have you got to work

01:26:30.400 --> 01:26:36.560

with And if you've got grain to work with then

you know you can bump up to a little bit slightly

01:26:36.560 --> 01:26:43.520

larger cow if you like You know if you've got

decent soil health and decent forage quality you

01:26:43.520 --> 01:26:48.480

can start to select within your herd for more milk

production because you can support that cow in

01:26:48.480 --> 01:26:56.560

that higher you know higher paying job that she's

got So you know the the defining your your your

01:26:56.560 --> 01:27:01.280

whole under management and all of the pieces that

you have that feed into your context It's it's

01:27:01.280 --> 01:27:08.320

very important to understand that because that's

how you wield all this complexity and you know the

01:27:08.320 --> 01:27:14.080

be the behavior piece should not be lost right

You you need a cow that's going to be somewhat

01:27:14.080 --> 01:27:19.920

aggressive and and you can do other things to

even manipulate the behavior of the cows that you

01:27:19.920 --> 01:27:26.960

have you know if if there really isn't um much out

there in your pasture right now you you've decided

01:27:26.960 --> 01:27:34.160

on your recovery periods or whatever Now you've

got to you have to decide your your impact Dairy

01:27:34.160 --> 01:27:39.840

cows are a lot hungrier than beef cows So you

can turn them out first and get a very different

01:27:39.840 --> 01:27:45.680

impact than if you feed them some nice soft second

cut dry hay as you're finishing up milking and

01:27:45.680 --> 01:27:50.880

then you set them out If you want a heavy impact

you can affect that If you want a lighter impact

01:27:50.880 --> 01:27:58.880

you can affect that It's you know it's just for

me it's endlessly fascinating to to wield that in

01:27:58.880 --> 01:28:06.400

And it that's how the cows fit in in the pasture

management in the chain of production you know

01:28:06.400 --> 01:28:12.880

they're that they're that product conversion piece

So the resources that you have so their health

01:28:12.880 --> 01:28:20.800

their body size their you know all of that feeds

in to understanding and that that brings you back

01:28:20.800 --> 01:28:26.080

down to a very basic profitability level Yeah I

mean one of the things we've done in the last few

01:28:26.080 --> 01:28:32.960

years is push milking times around to sort of take

advantage of the puscular nature of of bow lines

01:28:32.960 --> 01:28:39.360

you know just to have them out um at the two times

a day that they want to be out hammering the grass

01:28:39.360 --> 01:28:45.040

They're most excited and they're most excited

And then you see you watch the bird life activity

01:28:45.040 --> 01:28:51.360

around them when they're there when they're sort

of in quotes supposed to be there Um and and then

01:28:51.360 --> 01:29:00.640

you start to you get the fun thing of uh this sort

of thing of thinking about how much of this system

01:29:00.640 --> 01:29:07.360

do we not see and understand yet You know like

I mean it's like okay well there's cattle We're

01:29:07.360 --> 01:29:12.480

driving along the road or we're sitting next to

the fence and we're watching 200 dairy cows grave

01:29:12.480 --> 01:29:16.960

and the birds are flying around but what else

is going on Well obviously I mean in the last

01:29:16.960 --> 01:29:22.560

few years in the regenerative space we've learned

that there is so much going on right there and the

01:29:22.560 --> 01:29:28.640

fascination of all that and I would still say um

you know it's that I don't know whose book oh I

01:29:28.640 --> 01:29:32.880

think it was Gerald Fry's book actually where

he has the circle and there's the tiny little

01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:38.880

slice of like 3% and he said this is the part we

understand and then there's the 97% it's like this

01:29:38.880 --> 01:29:44.880

is the part we don't understand yet and I always

love that the amount of humility and sort of

01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:52.240

grace in that and um you know from as a person of

faith I really find that very comforting that we

01:29:52.240 --> 01:29:59.120

don't we don't have to understand it all we just

have to witness it and um be good and be good

01:29:59.120 --> 01:30:06.560

um managers and stewards of it Yeah Well in in

terms of the the aspects that perhaps you weren't

01:30:06.560 --> 01:30:12.800

intentionally manning uh managing for you know so

you're managing for profitability and production

01:30:12.800 --> 01:30:18.800

and healthy pastures but you were just mentioning

birds flying around And wasn't there a study that

01:30:18.800 --> 01:30:26.560

was done on your farm about bird populations Yes

Yeah Ground nesting birds um in our region what

01:30:26.560 --> 01:30:33.360

is the species It was four Oh I uh Well there link

I know or one boba link Um but there were se there

01:30:33.360 --> 01:30:38.160

were several The only one that the only ground

nesting bird that we had less of than everybody

01:30:38.160 --> 01:30:47.200

else were killed deer because they like open the

open soil But aside from that what were the main

01:30:47.200 --> 01:30:51.200

takeaways of the study for folks that haven't

read it And again I'll I'll put the link to the

01:30:51.200 --> 01:30:56.000

study in the show notes for folks but what's the

main takeaway main takeaway was we had just four

01:30:56.000 --> 01:31:03.920

times the number of population of those species

that are considered foundational species because

01:31:03.920 --> 01:31:11.040

um to the healthy bird populations in New York

State and frankly it it's just that we cut so

01:31:11.040 --> 01:31:17.920

much of the state to hay and grow so much corn

that um you know their ecosystem through the

01:31:17.920 --> 01:31:25.280

years has disappeared the Baba links especially

um their population collapsed and and now through

01:31:25.280 --> 01:31:32.480

good pastor management I mean we it was it was

remarkable because I I mean I'm in my uh early

01:31:32.480 --> 01:31:39.600

60s and and they disappeared when I was a little

kid you know and I grew up rural so we I mean we

01:31:39.600 --> 01:31:45.680

always kind of knew like where did that bird go

and so the hay ground the hay ground pushed them

01:31:45.680 --> 01:31:51.200

out right but this this study was on pasture

so they they were relegated to only trying to

01:31:51.200 --> 01:31:58.640

survive in pasture systems And this study looked

at um set stock conventional simple rotational

01:31:58.640 --> 01:32:08.960

and holistically planned holistic planned grazing

farms Um and you know the obviously the set stock

01:32:08.960 --> 01:32:14.640

um farms there were there were no ground there

were very few ground nesting birds So you know

01:32:14.640 --> 01:32:20.000

without without the pasture management and without

holistic management then they they couldn't even

01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:26.720

survive there So yeah I I think we've talked

around it a little bit but could you address it

01:32:26.720 --> 01:32:33.440

um straight on What is the difference between

a a standard rotational grazing regime and

01:32:33.440 --> 01:32:38.640

holistic planned grazing For listeners that

perhaps might be newer to this space can you

01:32:38.640 --> 01:32:47.200

just clarify what the difference between those

are Yeah I think when people for me I would say

01:32:47.200 --> 01:32:55.680

the difference is if you stop at um either

not even understanding recovery periods or

01:32:55.680 --> 01:33:03.680

um even if you just stop at the recovery piece

um you're pretty much stuck in rotational grazing

01:33:03.680 --> 01:33:13.520

and even if you're sort of trying to manage um

a little bit of of your your pasture health with

01:33:13.520 --> 01:33:21.440

just maintaining adequate recovery periods Um

that's very very different than holistic plan

01:33:21.440 --> 01:33:27.840

grazing And and really rotational grazing is okay

So you don't have just one big pasture that you

01:33:27.840 --> 01:33:33.360

let them roam around in endlessly without any

constraints Rotational grazing is I break it

01:33:33.360 --> 01:33:40.400

up into different cells or paddics and I move

them around Um but it's still usually tied to

01:33:40.400 --> 01:33:45.680

dry matter consumption So they you know as soon as

they finished the feed in whatever area they're in

01:33:45.680 --> 01:33:55.120

they move them to the next one And you know it

it doesn't really address any of the you know

01:33:55.120 --> 01:34:02.160

the fabulous things that go with grazing which is

increasing plant diversity which funnels right up

01:34:02.160 --> 01:34:10.400

into cow performance So you're going to get better

better health better um pregnancies better rates

01:34:10.400 --> 01:34:17.440

of gain more milk All of those things happen when

your forage diversity and health increases And if

01:34:17.440 --> 01:34:24.880

you you can't manage your your grazing in a way

that increases biodiversity and plant health and

01:34:24.880 --> 01:34:30.560

soil health then you got a lot to learn You should

go back to the to the drawing board And it's

01:34:30.560 --> 01:34:37.760

it's more than just moving them around and not

being free range One of the things that I think

01:34:37.760 --> 01:34:43.040

more accomplished farmers helps them actually

understand this and my experience is when you

01:34:43.040 --> 01:34:49.920

get to the point where you're talking about not

receding pastures not plowing pastures any longer

01:34:49.920 --> 01:34:57.760

uh because you're um you show them photos of

of swards that represent the entire population

01:34:57.760 --> 01:35:04.480

curve of of the plants And so and then you say

you know you're looking out at that and there's

01:35:04.480 --> 01:35:10.880

some dried seed heads above the green and they and

you say you know that that's less that might be 10

01:35:10.880 --> 01:35:18.480

to 15% of of those heads still standing there or

whatever And and then you say you know when those

01:35:18.480 --> 01:35:23.360

are dried and then you send those cattle through

for the second third fourth fifth 8th 10th graze

01:35:23.360 --> 01:35:29.680

whatever they're pushing those down and and and

if there's any soil available for those seed heads

01:35:29.680 --> 01:35:36.320

you're you're reeding your pasture as you grazing

That's a that's a eye openener for some like a

01:35:36.320 --> 01:35:43.520

lot of farmers are like "Wait a minute Are you

telling me this system will will perpetually do

01:35:43.520 --> 01:35:51.040

this if I manage it well Yes that's exactly what

we're saying And then you know that gives them

01:35:51.040 --> 01:35:58.160

um not only something that makes sense to

them financially but um it gives them uh a a

01:35:58.160 --> 01:36:04.640

tremendous upside to the additional brain power

management that you're asking them to do right

01:36:04.640 --> 01:36:15.440

Um because you know um I mean I I I I warn

people that that are are um HM junkies

01:36:15.440 --> 01:36:22.480

um to not um sort of oversell this in the sense

that um you know you show up on someone's farm

01:36:22.480 --> 01:36:27.200

and you tell them well I want you to read the you

know three books and I want you to read them again

01:36:27.200 --> 01:36:32.080

and then I wanna he means all three editions and

then go and we're gonna do I haven't even done

01:36:34.880 --> 01:36:41.920

Well sorry All you need is the the third edition

The third edition is much shorter than the first

01:36:41.920 --> 01:36:48.720

and the second and so you just you just need

one of them Yeah Well so we wanted to understand

01:36:48.720 --> 01:36:55.440

actually I learned holistic management in the

90s but with the obviously the first edition but

01:36:55.440 --> 01:37:01.040

um Phyllis and I both decided and I don't forget

when it was we wanted to understand his process

01:37:01.040 --> 01:37:05.920

through the three books a little more intensely

and there is some things that get peeled off that

01:37:05.920 --> 01:37:12.320

I feel are super high quality information and

and and and not to put too fine a point on it

01:37:12.320 --> 01:37:17.760

but when you life gives you the gift of working

with a genius is you should take that to its

01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:25.280

final conclusion And and he is a genius There's

no no doubt in my mind that he is And I've spent

01:37:25.280 --> 01:37:31.520

time with not only Allan but other geniuses And

when you see how their brains work you're like

01:37:31.520 --> 01:37:38.960

"Oh you know what This is a book unto itself How

this guy thinks through these things and um and

01:37:38.960 --> 01:37:44.960

and allows information to percolate through that

is uniquely different maybe than the rest of us

01:37:44.960 --> 01:37:52.960

how we interact with information yet But um yeah

so um I I just tell people you know selling them

01:37:52.960 --> 01:38:00.000

on a on a high intense management job is not

a like these are super hardworking overwhelmed

01:38:00.000 --> 01:38:04.640

people That's not that can't be the story The

story has to be that we're going to take you to

01:38:04.640 --> 01:38:08.880

a place where your management is actually going to

eliminate a lot of the difficult and tough things

01:38:08.880 --> 01:38:15.200

that you have to do now right and by by learning

the ecosystem processes and frankly and how this

01:38:15.200 --> 01:38:22.240

this grazing uh will change your system and and

that has I resisted that tremendously personally

01:38:22.240 --> 01:38:27.120

at the beginning Bobby I mean I fought back and

and even Phyllis and I we had to like we had to

01:38:27.120 --> 01:38:32.080

bounce these ideas off and really we had a lot of

very lively conversations around it because it's

01:38:32.080 --> 01:38:36.720

like I would say to things to her like that can't

work There's no way that's gonna work based on

01:38:36.720 --> 01:38:43.520

what I've seen And of course you know based on I'm

doing it anyway I think it will On what I've seen

01:38:43.520 --> 01:38:49.280

right So I mean the the idea that the future

is going to be only based on the information

01:38:49.280 --> 01:38:55.120

that we have we have today and what we've seen is

part of the problem because this is you're asking

01:38:55.120 --> 01:39:03.280

somebody to to there is a a very very important

leap of faith part of this that that I think

01:39:03.280 --> 01:39:11.680

um has to has to h we have to do a better

job of selling the upside of that leap

01:39:11.680 --> 01:39:16.960

for folks that are considering ing making

the transition into you know whether it's the

01:39:16.960 --> 01:39:24.000

transition from organic to grass-fed or from

rotational grazing to holistic plant grazing

01:39:24.000 --> 01:39:30.720

what are some some things that they might not be

realizing in in making these transitions Like what

01:39:30.720 --> 01:39:37.120

word of advice would you provide to folks who um

who are wanting to do this They see the potential

01:39:37.120 --> 01:39:43.600

upside um they're nervous about losing some of the

safety nets and and things that they've been doing

01:39:43.600 --> 01:39:52.160

uh for so long Like what advice do you think is

most important for folks to hear I I would say

01:39:52.160 --> 01:40:01.600

um that you can make a lot of these changes before

you make the change And what I mean by that is so

01:40:01.600 --> 01:40:08.720

you have your eye on the idea of being grass-fed

organic regenerative um and you're a conventional

01:40:08.720 --> 01:40:17.920

grazer shipping conventional milk Now um there's

things you can do before you go whole hog and

01:40:17.920 --> 01:40:23.360

change your market and take all of the risk

There's things you can do to begin to understand

01:40:23.360 --> 01:40:29.440

some of the changes that you're going to have

to make by doing it um you know raise if you're

01:40:29.440 --> 01:40:37.040

raising 20 heers a year a year raise two of them

um with milk and grass only and see how that goes

01:40:37.040 --> 01:40:45.360

Um dip your toe I guess my advice is dip your toe

in um and and then the same with grazing Um start

01:40:45.360 --> 01:40:51.840

to manage the farm based on recovery rather than

just dry matter Um and then after you begin to do

01:40:51.840 --> 01:40:58.000

that look at look at the rest of the principles

and go visit I also tell this to farmers all the

01:40:58.000 --> 01:41:06.160

time Go visit four or five producers that you have

respect for and you know are doing quite well in

01:41:06.160 --> 01:41:14.000

the type of farming that you want to move towards

and and and pick their brain Um and and spend some

01:41:14.000 --> 01:41:20.880

time with them as much as they'll allow um and

and sort of like get that beginning to happen

01:41:20.880 --> 01:41:32.240

in your mind and and through the years um as I as

I talk to farmers all the time I that seems to be

01:41:32.240 --> 01:41:42.640

um a really safe way for farmers to move and make

changes is when they go and they actually see

01:41:42.640 --> 01:41:50.560

it working somewhere It's like okay this is not

just some consultant standing at a podium with a

01:41:50.560 --> 01:41:59.920

PowerPoint This is actually happening And and and

one of the the really great things is oftentimes

01:41:59.920 --> 01:42:06.640

the farmers don't even know why it's happening

They can't articulate why it's working but

01:42:06.640 --> 01:42:12.960

they know how they kind of know in a rudimentary

fashion how they got where they got to And and so

01:42:12.960 --> 01:42:20.720

when it's described from that standpoint which is

frankly how that's my you know if I have a place

01:42:20.720 --> 01:42:28.560

in this movement that's my place You know I get to

stand with a bunch of young farmers and say "Look

01:42:28.560 --> 01:42:32.320

I'm not going to tell you what all the science

around it because I don't know it I don't need

01:42:32.320 --> 01:42:37.920

to know it I What I'm telling you is this is how

I plop these bales out here This is how we graze

01:42:37.920 --> 01:42:44.000

This is the kind of cow I pick." and and and now

here's my you know here's my numbers this here's

01:42:44.000 --> 01:42:50.720

how this is working and so that vi when when they

um you know I would that that would be my advice

01:42:50.720 --> 01:42:57.520

get out there visit those farms and then start to

make the changes uh while your system is still you

01:42:57.520 --> 01:43:04.080

know in theory working the way you want it to be

the other thing though is I've often times don't

01:43:04.080 --> 01:43:10.880

wait till your system is truly upside down and not

working to make changes make changes when you have

01:43:10.880 --> 01:43:17.920

some financial just make changes now Make changes

while you have some flow Just do it now You know

01:43:17.920 --> 01:43:25.040

while you're while you're while you still have

some grease to make things work because you don't

01:43:25.040 --> 01:43:35.360

want to be um making the changes when you have

zero um financial resource is is kind of pressure

01:43:35.360 --> 01:43:45.760

that nobody needs Yeah I I 100% agree and I'll

add read the book and read the book over again

01:43:45.760 --> 01:43:53.520

so that you can start to bring some one of the

things that's very difficult especially the reason

01:43:53.520 --> 01:43:59.440

people don't change is they already have too much

on their mind and if you don't give yourself a

01:43:59.440 --> 01:44:06.560

tool to help you organize those thoughts and let

you know that you're you're on a path that you

01:44:06.560 --> 01:44:11.120

know if you're if you got to walk through a valley

at least if you know you're walking in the right

01:44:11.120 --> 01:44:15.280

direction and you're going to get through to the

other side you can do it right it a lot of it is

01:44:15.280 --> 01:44:23.360

the unknown and that you know holistic management

really if if you put the effort in it will help

01:44:23.360 --> 01:44:31.040

you understand what is going on and I would say

absolutely use a grazing plan I I firmly believe

01:44:31.040 --> 01:44:37.440

that starting with grazing even if you're using it

as a record which frankly most grazing consultants

01:44:37.440 --> 01:44:43.040

will have you use a grazing plan which is just

a record of what you've done And to me if that's

01:44:43.040 --> 01:44:48.800

your first step that's fine Do it that way And

if your next step is just using it to flex those

01:44:48.800 --> 01:44:54.640

recovery periods that's fine Do it that way But

every year you will be able to track You're going

01:44:54.640 --> 01:45:00.400

to be able to go back And the way I do it is

I use the the relative quality as the actual

01:45:00.400 --> 01:45:09.120

animal days per the actual animal days And then I

translate that into the animal days per acre and I

01:45:09.120 --> 01:45:17.440

can track whether I'm going up or down Always go

up Even from year one to year two those numbers

01:45:17.440 --> 01:45:25.120

went up And that's very it's very informative and

it's very heartening And again for us as grass-fed

01:45:25.120 --> 01:45:31.920

dairy farmers it's very straightforward If we

go out and make Bage and feed our cows 365 days

01:45:31.920 --> 01:45:40.240

a year it's going to cost us X X minus the number

of days that we have on pasture That's huge in our

01:45:40.240 --> 01:45:46.880

bottom line right Our feed costs So as Paul talked

about before we feed for you know if we pasture

01:45:46.880 --> 01:45:54.320

for an extra 20 days at $500 a day that's not just

money that is you know it's it's not even going to

01:45:54.320 --> 01:45:58.560

go to your your bottom line It's going to go to

the places that you really need to be spending

01:45:58.560 --> 01:46:05.360

money on and then you can compound it from there

Right now you're fixing your next problem Then you

01:46:05.360 --> 01:46:12.080

take that set of resources and you fix your next

problem You alleviate your shortcomings and your

01:46:12.080 --> 01:46:17.920

in your equipment right You really needed fill

in the blank Now you can purchase that You're

01:46:17.920 --> 01:46:24.960

relieving your labor burden and all these other

things And it costs zero money practically to

01:46:24.960 --> 01:46:32.160

change your grazing management So talk to people

that are doing it Go and see them Read about the

01:46:32.160 --> 01:46:41.680

processes that work That book is the place and

and just just go just do it Yeah Be so happy

01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:51.360

We've we've talked a lot about the uh transition

into holistic management and planned grazing but

01:46:51.360 --> 01:46:56.880

you guys have been at this for for quite some

time now So you know even though you're first

01:46:56.880 --> 01:47:02.960

generation farmers you've got quite a lot of

experience under your belt Um which you know

01:47:02.960 --> 01:47:08.000

is is wonderful to be able to speak to all

these different scenarios that folks might

01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:13.120

find themselves in And I'm curious more on

what are some of the the long-term things

01:47:13.120 --> 01:47:17.440

that maybe took some time to show up in your

land or in your animals Like what were some

01:47:17.440 --> 01:47:23.760

of the the slower things to respond or even

some of the lessons that took you quite a

01:47:23.760 --> 01:47:30.640

long time to learn that you know you didn't

quite get in the early days I mean um I can

01:47:30.640 --> 01:47:37.280

sort of talk to that question in regards to the

farms and then I'll let Billy take a stab at it

01:47:38.320 --> 01:47:48.560

um at in the first farm you don't know what you

don't know So um I was bringing um I was talking

01:47:48.560 --> 01:47:54.800

to a lot of organic farmers and bringing sort

of a lot of basic organic principles to it and

01:47:54.800 --> 01:48:04.080

um we were not impacting the fertility um very

quickly at all Um and you know the first farm

01:48:04.080 --> 01:48:10.880

I say what took us seven years has taken us

about half the time on the second farm that

01:48:10.880 --> 01:48:18.160

we that we bought in 17 And that and um different

soil types So you know even maybe more stubborn

01:48:18.160 --> 01:48:25.200

than the first farm Um but as far as an uphill

battle but the but the point I'm making is when

01:48:25.200 --> 01:48:32.640

you have the context sort of and and I I I'm not

going to say we got we have it perfectly aligned

01:48:32.640 --> 01:48:38.560

We don't We're still changing and learning

What I'm saying is we were closer the second

01:48:38.560 --> 01:48:45.280

time We came into it knowing what we should

be worried about and kind of where to start

01:48:45.280 --> 01:48:54.560

So we were more um we were more affected and

and that's you know so that can be applied a

01:48:54.560 --> 01:49:01.040

thousand times right because you you know you

got all your hay fields maybe uh um you know

01:49:01.040 --> 01:49:06.000

a section of pasture that you've been cropping

and now you're going to turn into p like every

01:49:06.000 --> 01:49:13.680

time you're you get a chance to redo that set of

sort of question in regard to re land management

01:49:13.680 --> 01:49:20.000

um you bring that new set of skills um based on

your experience and what you've seen happen and

01:49:20.000 --> 01:49:28.880

um and so it very much compounds on itself in that

regard So I would say you know um I don't think

01:49:28.880 --> 01:49:38.240

um five years um is an unreasonable amount of time

to awake a farm awaken a farm that and we bought

01:49:38.240 --> 01:49:46.880

two farms one was settled in 1780 the other was

se settled in 1752 Um so you know we bought one

01:49:46.880 --> 01:49:54.720

in 2006 and we bought one in 2017 We farmed before

that in another farm but th these two farms are

01:49:54.720 --> 01:50:00.560

where we're dairying now And when I think about

these two farms I think uh the amount of resource

01:50:00.560 --> 01:50:06.720

management that took place here um that went

many of much of it going in the wrong direction

01:50:06.720 --> 01:50:16.640

because this land loves to be plowed Um it's hard

to like um it's hard to gripe about it taking five

01:50:16.640 --> 01:50:24.960

to seven years I mean it's like that is like

unbelievably fast and amazing from a natural

01:50:24.960 --> 01:50:31.200

system standpoint So I'm I'm you know I totally I

think land turns around fast when you show up with

01:50:31.200 --> 01:50:37.920

the right attitude and a lot of cows And a lot of

cows A lot of cows But over Yeah Don't believe in

01:50:37.920 --> 01:50:46.080

the myth of overstock right Overstock And by you

know absolutely We overstocked and and we caught a

01:50:46.080 --> 01:50:53.040

lot of crit criticism for it but it was one of the

things that really helped us work ourselves around

01:50:53.040 --> 01:50:59.040

Also I would you know a little bit of caution

When you overstock in the northern climates

01:50:59.040 --> 01:51:03.040

you got to remember that you got to feed them

through the winter too So you better have that

01:51:03.040 --> 01:51:08.000

your checkbook ready on that side And that can

also be an asset though Absolutely because you're

01:51:08.000 --> 01:51:13.040

bringing in you're bringing in that fertility to

your farming system and you're feeding it out on

01:51:13.040 --> 01:51:19.360

land that is hungry for nutrition and carbon Um

and life isn't math You're not subtracting from

01:51:19.360 --> 01:51:24.800

somewhere else and just adding it to your farm

What what you do is you increase your ability

01:51:24.800 --> 01:51:31.440

you know you bring in you know 2x and your your

production goes up 4x and now you've got 2x that

01:51:31.440 --> 01:51:36.160

if you want to you can haul back to that other

place and make that 4x You know I mean it just

01:51:36.160 --> 01:51:42.320

life by definition proliferates So don't believe

in the myth of of too many cattle I got to tell

01:51:42.320 --> 01:51:48.640

him about when I was in Zimbabwe and of talking

to Allan Yeah please do I was actually noticing

01:51:48.640 --> 01:51:53.520

Paul you're wearing a hat from the Africa Center

for Holistic Management So I was going to ask have

01:51:53.520 --> 01:51:59.200

you guys been to Zim to for for folks that aren't

paying attention the Africa Center is Allen's

01:51:59.200 --> 01:52:05.280

home in Zimbabwe It's the first savory hub and

a lot of people go there to just witness it in

01:52:05.280 --> 01:52:10.240

person because this is one of the longest running

holistically managed properties that are out there

01:52:10.240 --> 01:52:15.040

and it's just incredible So yeah Phyllis please go

ahead What you What was it like going and seeing

01:52:15.040 --> 01:52:24.400

it life And I have to get him there I will get him

there Um I went um in 2014 and we also had when we

01:52:24.400 --> 01:52:30.080

had a central savory conference we had we were in

London that year too I was oh my god what a what

01:52:30.080 --> 01:52:39.840

a amazing So um but pretty new right I was like

what was I maybe two years in 18 months in you

01:52:39.840 --> 01:52:47.760

know I I had read the two two editions um trying

to noodle into Allen's brain as much as I could

01:52:47.760 --> 01:52:58.640

And anyway um he was talking about a bunch of

stuff and somehow it led me to ask the question

01:52:58.640 --> 01:53:11.760

uh you know um have you ever been anywhere where

they were overstocked And he thought "Nope." And

01:53:11.760 --> 01:53:18.320

he left it like that And I was like you know here

I am inside going well what does that mean What

01:53:18.320 --> 01:53:23.920

are you talking about You know which you you just

don't do You go okay I got a lot of noodling to

01:53:23.920 --> 01:53:31.120

do on this I got you That's heavy Have you ever

This is a man who's been how many places Over

01:53:31.120 --> 01:53:38.640

how long Over the entire globe And I ask him

if he ever been anywhere that was overstocked

01:53:38.640 --> 01:53:45.840

And he says no I'm like h and I gotta tell you

it was revolutionary I mean it took me a very

01:53:45.840 --> 01:53:52.320

very long time I'll I'll cut to the end I mean

yeah What'd you learn Pretty much where and I'll

01:53:52.320 --> 01:53:59.840

he'll have to tell you if if where I landed was

at all appropriate but unless your cows are dead

01:53:59.840 --> 01:54:07.920

it's a management issue which you could loosely

say is a logistics constraint That's valid right

01:54:07.920 --> 01:54:14.880

So if I'm bringing if if I don't have enough

pasture right if my management of my pasture or if

01:54:14.880 --> 01:54:21.280

I don't if I have too many cows if I truly do have

too many cows for the area that I'm constraining

01:54:21.280 --> 01:54:29.760

by pasture then I have to bring them in feed you

could deduce that if I could bring the cows over

01:54:29.760 --> 01:54:36.000

to where I got the feed right It's just it's a

it's a different management um harvesting the

01:54:36.000 --> 01:54:42.640

feed and bringing them rather than having them So

it really is a matter of logistics and management

01:54:42.640 --> 01:54:54.160

So it's up to you to manage your way back out of

that And so it drove me to to really have faith in

01:54:54.160 --> 01:55:04.560

the idea that grass doesn't grow cows Cows grow

grass It it actually works the other way around

01:55:04.560 --> 01:55:10.880

So you know you can have because we watched it

on our fun to watch her say that to farmers by

01:55:10.880 --> 01:55:18.400

the way Very fun because their brains just break

They break And here's another one I love it when

01:55:18.400 --> 01:55:23.600

when there when because I was here too I'm like

"Oh I'm doing you know this is going so well."

01:55:23.600 --> 01:55:32.160

And then you see your your cow reaching through

the the fence right And you got to ask yourself

01:55:32.160 --> 01:55:43.360

okay so I'm saying out of my face that I believe

that cows and grasslands co-evolved benefit each

01:55:43.360 --> 01:55:52.080

other symbiotic right Which would lead you which

you know logically where the cows are the grass

01:55:52.080 --> 01:56:00.640

is better If your cow's reaching through the fence

you're doing something wrong Why Why is the forage

01:56:00.640 --> 01:56:07.840

better where the cows aren't The grass should

always be better where the cows are and they

01:56:07.840 --> 01:56:12.480

shouldn't want to leave the fence That one also

they they're just like you know because they're

01:56:12.480 --> 01:56:16.960

they're all worried about when you're trying to

when you propose this grazing well how am I going

01:56:16.960 --> 01:56:22.320

to keep them in and do I need electric fences and

do I need this Your cows should be where the grass

01:56:22.320 --> 01:56:27.280

is the best and not want to go everywhere else

And that does not mean that all you have to do

01:56:27.280 --> 01:56:33.040

is snap your fingers and start managing correctly

It's going to take you five years to get there but

01:56:33.040 --> 01:56:40.560

you you should be getting there So it's all just

a matter of management really when it comes down

01:56:40.560 --> 01:56:48.000

to it And that for me that was very empowering

because it was a challenge that I that I I just

01:56:48.000 --> 01:56:55.280

was glad to take Just another observation Bobby

too that I think is important is is one of the

01:56:55.280 --> 01:57:06.240

gifts of our work is we get to travel and see

other farms and um um there's a there there

01:57:06.240 --> 01:57:12.800

is a group of grass-fed dairy people that are

that are understand this exceedingly well now

01:57:12.800 --> 01:57:22.400

And that was not true in 2010 Um and and those

farms not only are they getting amazing results

01:57:22.400 --> 01:57:29.440

very healthy cows good productivity which all of

them say I think we're just scratching the surface

01:57:29.440 --> 01:57:37.280

um but their financial outcomes are much higher

than the than sort of the group as a whole And

01:57:37.280 --> 01:57:42.560

they're so happy the they're just such happy

people It's for us the work is obvious It's

01:57:42.560 --> 01:57:48.240

basically look we've got this you know this 15% of

these farmers that are doing very well We just got

01:57:48.240 --> 01:57:55.840

to get these other 85% to really understand these

principles and see what the way forward is And

01:57:55.840 --> 01:58:02.000

uh regardless of the production model exactly

and because you know it could be beef it could

01:58:02.000 --> 01:58:07.120

it could be a lot it could be crops it could be a

lot of things It doesn't have to be typically milk

01:58:07.120 --> 01:58:13.520

Um but yeah so you know you sort of see that and

and the work becomes sort of plain and obvious

01:58:13.520 --> 01:58:20.720

and and and inspirational really I mean um when

you see how profound it is for the farms that are

01:58:20.720 --> 01:58:28.160

doing well and and um and that the fact that their

children are now in many cases involved andor

01:58:28.160 --> 01:58:33.680

taking the farms over it's like that's been a big

problem for a long time is to get somebody that

01:58:33.680 --> 01:58:40.480

wants to you know we say dairy is is getting the

second generation to fall on the sword of dairy

01:58:40.480 --> 01:58:46.880

has not been so easy right Well of course because

that's what we're asking But if we if if we can

01:58:46.880 --> 01:58:53.280

show them a lifestyle that's amazing and and a

kind of farming that's fun to be part of then it's

01:58:53.280 --> 01:59:00.080

we don't have to do very much to get them to stay

They're going to want to stay And so that's when

01:59:00.080 --> 01:59:07.760

that's been a huge eye openener for us to see that

sort of spreading around better producers more

01:59:07.760 --> 01:59:13.520

productive farms that understand a lot of it Yeah

it it seems like the tides are changing You know

01:59:13.520 --> 01:59:20.160

like you said just since 2010 so much has changed

and um you know I I know we're coming up on on two

01:59:20.160 --> 01:59:25.120

hours of recording here We we've turned this into

a long form podcast which I'm fine with but I want

01:59:25.120 --> 01:59:29.600

to be respectful of you guys' time because I know

you've got cows out there that need some care and

01:59:29.600 --> 01:59:38.960

attention But I'm wondering where you see things

headed into the future um for the dairy industry

01:59:38.960 --> 01:59:45.200

on the whole or even maybe more broadly speaking

in regenerative agriculture like what sort of

01:59:45.200 --> 01:59:52.720

trends have you seen in the last decade or so

and then where do you think everything is going

01:59:53.280 --> 02:00:01.360

I mean um it's your question really leads to

broader cultural questions and think impacts from

02:00:01.360 --> 02:00:13.920

outside of agriculture I will I I I have a a very

sort of um optimistic uh point to make that um

02:00:13.920 --> 02:00:22.160

cultures are often changed by changes in food and

agriculture I believe that we are in the middle of

02:00:22.160 --> 02:00:30.720

one of those changes right now I think people are

thinking about not being in pain and and wanting

02:00:30.720 --> 02:00:39.680

to feel healthier and wanting to see um people

that they live around their neighbors primarily

02:00:39.680 --> 02:00:52.800

live happier and more productive lives Um and um

is not being sort of yanked around by a um a very

02:00:52.800 --> 02:01:02.160

um oh sort of political overpolit politicized

sort of negative sort of view of the world And

02:01:02.160 --> 02:01:10.160

I think I think right now food and farming is in a

place where we can have a very productive um part

02:01:10.160 --> 02:01:19.600

in that healthy transition to a to a kinder ser um

more productive world We can all we can all argue

02:01:19.600 --> 02:01:26.960

about the details of what that what has to get

fixed in order for that to happen Um and I would

02:01:26.960 --> 02:01:35.760

say one of the conversations that we you can't

skip is how do we fix money Um because money is it

02:01:35.760 --> 02:01:43.200

it it really is so central to so many things that

everyone does that if we don't have a fair money

02:01:43.200 --> 02:01:52.400

system it's very difficult to talk about fixing

any of the other issues at hand And um so yeah I I

02:01:52.400 --> 02:02:02.640

think um the regenerative movement um I would say

needs to uh continue to uh be all stake and less

02:02:02.640 --> 02:02:13.120

sizzle In other words more content that gets to

the issues at hand And um I think we need to worry

02:02:13.120 --> 02:02:21.440

less about signing um NBAs I think we need to all

run around a for like Phyllis and I have done for

02:02:21.440 --> 02:02:28.000

the last 20 years and literally try to give away

everything that we have learned and not it doesn't

02:02:28.000 --> 02:02:35.920

have to make money We need to figure out a way for

it to actually get into people's heads and and and

02:02:35.920 --> 02:02:42.640

we might have to do extraordinary things for that

to happen Um but it because it really is the the

02:02:42.640 --> 02:02:49.680

the basis for the profitability of so many people

who are trying to take back control of producing

02:02:49.680 --> 02:02:55.760

food right And and making that that distance

between the people who are being empowered by

02:02:55.760 --> 02:03:00.480

taking control of the food that they eat There's

you know people are trying to take they're

02:03:00.480 --> 02:03:05.920

they're empowered by taking control of their own

nourishment and they know that there are people

02:03:05.920 --> 02:03:12.240

that are trying to take control of nourishing

people and the distance between the two is short

02:03:12.240 --> 02:03:19.280

and it has to be in order to fix the money around

it right There's so it's so ciruitous that so too

02:03:19.280 --> 02:03:29.040

much gets lost along the way So I think both of us

are very hopeful that more people will will bring

02:03:29.040 --> 02:03:34.080

themselves into agriculture including in dairy

I mean I think that raw milk is going to gain

02:03:34.080 --> 02:03:42.160

in popularity I think smaller producers which you

know there was a there were we just came out of a

02:03:42.160 --> 02:03:49.600

period where there were new no startups There was

no ability to lend to to borrow money to start up

02:03:49.600 --> 02:03:54.880

There were no markets that were willing to

take you on The freight was too expensive

02:03:54.880 --> 02:04:02.560

But the growth in the sector even the commodities

you know I mean we sort of consider grass-fed a

02:04:02.560 --> 02:04:08.960

commodity at this point you know unless it's raw

farm to to consumer it's going through that chain

02:04:08.960 --> 02:04:15.600

and even that is pulling small producers in again

because the growth there's there's no grass-fed

02:04:15.600 --> 02:04:22.960

milk on the shelves and you know people can't keep

up with it the the demand right Right The markets

02:04:22.960 --> 02:04:30.640

are having trouble keeping up with the demand of

people who want their milk to come from people

02:04:30.640 --> 02:04:38.160

that are actually invested in in a production

model that is truly nourishing and beneficial

02:04:38.160 --> 02:04:46.480

for everything involved And that doesn't happen

in that linear biggering model that really doesn't

02:04:46.480 --> 02:04:52.880

have an end So for the first time over the last

it's only been about a year or so we're seeing

02:04:52.880 --> 02:04:59.680

more Yeah smaller producers able to start up

which is really really exciting because you

02:04:59.680 --> 02:05:09.520

know that article that Paul wrote in 2010 that

talked about the that that separation between

02:05:09.520 --> 02:05:16.400

you know all the milk that people drink will be

grass-fed and then the other milk will do all the

02:05:16.400 --> 02:05:22.080

other things that milk does in the industry right

Right down to medical you know medical parts from

02:05:22.080 --> 02:05:29.440

the co cows But really the people you know the

the the actual dairy products that people bring

02:05:29.440 --> 02:05:34.640

onto their table will come from small farmers

That's what I think Yeah And that understanding

02:05:34.640 --> 02:05:43.120

how that productive ecology works is is the key

to this revolution I mean and it and it is it's

02:05:43.120 --> 02:05:50.080

um and it will and and and and I I'm willing

to have the scaling conversation and all the

02:05:50.080 --> 02:05:56.560

conversations around it because I think it will

Yeah And we're we're seeing more and more farmers

02:05:56.560 --> 02:06:05.840

um say "Okay well how do we um how do we do this

you know with custom help from the machine side?"

02:06:06.640 --> 02:06:14.720

like you know it's it's um you know I don't I I

think it's time to have those conversations and

02:06:14.720 --> 02:06:21.520

and and and look at it really from the eyes

of somebody that is coming in from a more

02:06:21.520 --> 02:06:29.840

conventional mindset and then working out pieces

and parts of it And you know um we have science

02:06:29.840 --> 02:06:36.480

uh I mean there's a lot of science to support this

type of farming now It's not you know 20 years ago

02:06:36.480 --> 02:06:42.240

when we started it looked ridiculous to people

Why would you take good hay bales and put them

02:06:42.240 --> 02:06:48.720

out on a pasture Why are you gra right Why are you

grazing our best hay fields That was the farmer

02:06:48.720 --> 02:06:53.600

that we bought the farm from That What are you

doing You can't put cows over there What are you

02:06:53.600 --> 02:07:05.920

doing you know So um and then also fertilizer that

a wet fertilizer does um to soils and productivity

02:07:05.920 --> 02:07:11.760

and short-term long-term and our understanding of

all around that is come has matured come a long

02:07:11.760 --> 02:07:20.320

way um you know these uh agriculture was walking

around on a set of stilts right And and it still

02:07:20.320 --> 02:07:26.560

is in many respects and until we get it off the

stilts and we get our feet on the ground and

02:07:26.560 --> 02:07:34.240

it's sort of a more resilient mindset and even the

huge conventional farms are coming to this They're

02:07:34.240 --> 02:07:40.000

coming to it because the the dollar they're

receiving for the commodity they're producing is

02:07:40.000 --> 02:07:49.040

no longer working And so you know you don't have

to read those numbers very long and see the kind

02:07:49.040 --> 02:07:56.960

of uh depreciation numbers that you're managing

and how there's no way out for them Um and it's

02:07:56.960 --> 02:08:03.440

happening in beef that we we're at a 50 or 75 year

low in in the country's beef production And that's

02:08:03.440 --> 02:08:09.200

because a lot of guys my age look at these cow

prices and land prices and say "Why am I going

02:08:09.200 --> 02:08:15.440

to continue to with myself and my family um to

produce a commodity that just frankly doesn't pen

02:08:15.440 --> 02:08:22.800

so happen?" and and um and yes their production

model we can sit here and sort of you know make

02:08:22.800 --> 02:08:29.440

that judgment that their production model is off

but it it is also a reality that that dollar no

02:08:29.440 --> 02:08:35.760

that dollar did work for their production model at

one point and no longer works so you know there is

02:08:35.760 --> 02:08:41.200

really the rub right how are we to react to that

um I think there's two things that have to happen

02:08:41.200 --> 02:08:47.360

we have to change our mindset between our ears as

Tim always says and um as the culture we do have

02:08:47.360 --> 02:08:54.160

to fix money We have to figure out a way so that

people that labor at the end of 40 years don't

02:08:54.160 --> 02:09:00.080

their only answer can't be to sell the resources

that they've managed That can't be the only answer

02:09:00.080 --> 02:09:05.440

They have to have you know it's well the farm

has the farmer has the farm as a retirement And

02:09:05.440 --> 02:09:11.440

when you begin to understand the the importance of

multi-generational farming and fertility and how

02:09:11.440 --> 02:09:17.360

it actually works you realize what a tragedy that

is that every 40 years we're gonna sell that piece

02:09:17.360 --> 02:09:22.960

of property off to a different use or two to a

different family We're never gonna get anywhere as

02:09:22.960 --> 02:09:29.040

a culture That's just Yeah Well there's a piece of

it that's lost every time it changes hands There's

02:09:29.040 --> 02:09:35.520

some of it that gets siphoned off uh either

through inheritance tax or a piece of it goes into

02:09:35.520 --> 02:09:41.840

development You know bit by bit We're slowly just

siphoning off all of our productive working land

02:09:41.840 --> 02:09:50.640

Um and anything that we can do to reverse that I

think is absolutely needed Absolutely Yeah Well

02:09:50.640 --> 02:09:57.680

this has been uh so enlightening and insightful

to dive deep I actually have like a hundred

02:09:57.680 --> 02:10:02.640

more questions that I wanted to ask you about

like mineralization of forage and how you got

02:10:02.640 --> 02:10:08.880

your mastitis to drop from 73 to 3% and you know

getting into the specifics of your grazing plan

02:10:08.880 --> 02:10:14.880

and H5N1 and like there was so many things that

I wanted to talk about So maybe we do a round two

02:10:14.880 --> 02:10:22.400

at some point Jeff let's do a round two and then

you you're an editor you can go from there Awesome

02:10:22.400 --> 02:10:30.160

Well uh for folks that want to follow along with

your journey where is best uh to to point our

02:10:30.160 --> 02:10:35.760

audience to Where can they find you in the digital

world Yeah Um we don't even have a website We're

02:10:35.760 --> 02:10:43.440

like in person people Yeah So I think we do still

have a We got to find them We got to go find them

02:10:43.440 --> 02:10:50.320

Yeah I mean we're highly googable but I would say

our email is uh [email protected] And that I'm

02:10:50.320 --> 02:10:55.040

I'm happy to have that out there And if people

want to ask us questions um that's a great way to

02:10:55.040 --> 02:11:06.880

reach us And uh so that's [email protected] Um

and I and yeah especially farmers I would say but

02:11:06.880 --> 02:11:13.760

people that um drink grass-fed milk too if they

have any questions about how it actually happens

02:11:13.760 --> 02:11:21.200

they're happy to talk about it Um and anything to

do with uh you know our understanding of holistic

02:11:21.200 --> 02:11:27.440

management If that's where people are at I would

love to delve into that too Um which is kind of

02:11:27.440 --> 02:11:32.000

required I mean I don't know about you guys but

you can't just read the book You got to talk to

02:11:32.000 --> 02:11:37.520

people about it There's a lot of people that

will try to just read the book and do it on

02:11:37.520 --> 02:11:44.320

their own And you can only get so far without that

in-person experience and the mentorship and that

02:11:44.320 --> 02:11:50.960

peer-to-peer learning It's it's so invaluable It

is It is Yeah Well thankfully there are folks like

02:11:50.960 --> 02:11:57.520

you who have paved the way for others Uh shown how

it's done and making those transitions and doing

02:11:57.520 --> 02:12:03.760

it uh in a way that is profitable good for your

pastures common sense and at the end of the day

02:12:03.760 --> 02:12:10.160

gets us the healthiest most nutrient-dense product

that we need So you know thanks for paving the way

02:12:10.160 --> 02:12:16.400

for everyone and leading by example Great talking

to you Thank you All right Thanks guys Have a

02:12:16.400 --> 02:12:22.720

good one This episode was edited by Claire Everson

and her theme music was composed and performed by

02:12:22.720 --> 02:12:28.320

Travis McNamera Ruminations is a production of the

Savory Institute the Savory Foundation and Land to

02:12:28.320 --> 02:12:33.440

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