Running a Regenerative Business

Bobby: Welcome to Ruminations. I'm your host, Bobby Gill. Today we are going beyond regenerative agriculture and we're talking about regenerative business, regenerative organizations, managing complexity, living systems design, and what leadership looks like for healthy and robust complex living systems. And to do that, I can't think of a better guest than Tre Cates.

Tre is the founder of nRhythm, a consulting firm that helps brands, organizations, businesses, and projects design their systems for regeneration through a living systems Approach. nRhythm is on a mission to transform workplaces and create conditions where health and abundance are the natural outcomes, not just for land, but for people and for the business on the whole.

He's worked with  Fortune 500 companies, nonprofits, governments, and mission-driven leaders to rethink the way that we structure work, leadership, and collaboration before nRhythm. Tre was actually the chief operating officer here at the Savory Institute, uh, in the early days, in addition to bringing his.

Business acumen to the table. Tre conceptualized the now famous Savory Hub model that to this day, is still the main scaling mechanism that's allowed savory to influence over a hundred million acres. Tre was actually the person who hired me years ago at Savory, so I've had the chance to see firsthand how he.

Thinks leads and challenges, conventional wisdom. Uh, and today we're gonna explore how his ideas have evolved, what people generally get wrong about leadership and business and what it really takes to build an organization that thrive. Um, this is a. Lovely conversation. We get into the weeds, uh, in areas that you don't  normally hear discussed on your typical ag podcast, but I know you're gonna enjoy it.

So without further ado, let's dive into my conversation with none other than Mr. Tre Cates. But first a word from our sponsors.

Have you seen Alan Savory's Ted Talk? There's a set of before and after photos in that TED Talk that show the transformation that's possible. Um, and this particular set of photos are in Zimbabwe. It's totally barren land. And then just three or four years later, after managing holistically, the grasses are tall, head high perennials.

It's an incredible transformation. And there's a chance that you can go see this in person. We've got an upcoming savory journey to go visit this site. This is the Dimbangombe Conservancy. It's in, it's in Victoria Falls, Zimbabwe. It's Alan Savory's home. It's the birthplace of holistic management. It's the first ever  savory Hub.

Hub. We're running a trip in January of 2026. We're gonna have a group of about six to 12 people going and. We've teamed up with the Africa Center for Holistic Management and we're giving away one of these slots on the trip for free. If you want to get in on this, we've got a giveaway happening in celebration of Earth Day.

There's three different ways to enter. Basically, you can donate to the Savory Institute, support our global mission regenerating grasslands, or you can support the local efforts that are happening at the Africa Center for Holistic Management. Over there at Dimbangombe, the choice is yours. There's three ways to enter three entries.

That is savory global slash earth dash day dash giveaway. We'll also link it here below the episode. We'll see you in Zim.

Bobby: Tre, how you doing, my friend?

Tre: Uh, I'm doing great.

Bobby: That is wonderful to hear. Um, I never know where in the world you are. It used to be that you and I used to work together, and so we used to share a small little desk at the Impact Hub up in Boulder. Um, but uh, where do, where do we find you Today

Tre: Today I'm in Texas, uh, spend time between Texas, Arkansas, and uh, Colorado. So those are probably the three plays that I, places that I spend the most time. But, um, right now I'm in, uh, just outside of Dallas.

Bobby: Great. Yeah. I know [00:05:00] at your time at the Savory Institute, which we will get into later, you were often bouncing around to different locations. I know you spent a lot of time in Zimbabwe helping them run the operations at the Africa Center for Holistic Management out there. Um. Before we get into all of that, I think let's set the groundwork for some of this conversation.

'cause we're gonna talk regenerative business and organizations and some, some more high level concepts in this conversation. Not necessarily the tactical, practical of land management, but these things are all connected and related as people, I think we'll see. Let's rewind the clock a little bit. Who was Renee Descartes and what was his contribution to

Tre: Yeah. So that it's, it's an interesting question. Um,  uh, when we bring up Renee Decart, um, I, I, I think the idea that, um, we are approaching things in. A more rational way and how all of that laid itself into kind of an enlightened way of seeing the world that then we industrialized and, and to me that kind of follow through.

Uh, I, I'm not sure, uh, Descartes would be in a place of where he would like to see he, he would've appreciated some of the outcomes that we, we have currently, but it came from a very rational thinking, logical process that was definitely not rooted in what I would call live.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. And what were. What was the main thesis that Descartes was [00:07:00] putting forward in terms of, uh, I mean really we're getting into the Cartesian split between Mind and Matter. Uh, can you expound on that a little bit?

Tre: Yeah, it, it was really into the idea. So the underlying thinking of, I think therefore I am, was based in the idea that I. Um, ultimately all things could be rational in thinking to result in a certain, um, understanding of the world. And so the mind body split allowed us to see one thing. Uh, in a form as a, for, for, in a form that was for use, not necessarily holistic.

Um, influenced and impacted all aspects of life and, uh, and that Cartesian split positioned us to apply what was a discovery then into every industry and every part of society.

Bobby: What does that look like, say in the context of agriculture, you know, how would, um, that separation of mind and body or mind and matter, uh, this more, uh, reductionist worldview, what does that look like in, in agricultural sense? And then I guess the, uh, flip [00:09:00] side of that coin is what is the flip side of that coin?

You know, what does that look like from a more holistic perspective?

Tre: Yeah, I mean, I think ultimately what it means, uh, is that we, we see things through a lens that is reducing down to. Um, certain insights to its, uh, simplest form. And, and that was in essence what science really did well, which is let's, if we're gonna really understand something, let's break it down all the way as far as we can, and in understanding its parts, we can understand its whole.

And, and that's not necessarily true. So Great. Example that's been used over and over again is you can't study hydrogen and then understand water. You can't study oxygen and understand water. You actually need to study water to understand water, right? Doesn't, that doesn't mean you can't get insights from those different  parts, but that's not the same.

So the idea of reducing thing down to its simplest form. The, the intention was, is we would understand more, and in reality, I think we understand less because we, we eliminate the context, uh, in that process of reducing down to those simplest forms. And so what that means to agriculture is we begin to get into all these different ideas about land.

That really had nothing to do with what was happening in land. It was, it was really about reducing it for one particular reason, uh, to get more productivity and to be as efficient as possible. And, and that's what happened. The scientific revolution rolled itself straight into, well, if everything is seen like that, then actually the machine is a better metaphor.

And so if machine's the better metaphor, then that means we can dial it all  in, right? We can tone, we can refine it, we can position it, we can do all of this in a way where it's better and better and better. 'cause we're gonna refine it, refine it down to its most core form, and, and that was picked up by the big time industrialization that we had as we went into the 18th.

Now it was all about maximizing productivity, minimizing inefficiencies, and that was then applied to every industry, including agriculture. So we didn't even have a view to see something other than what could maximize yield, uh, in the context of agriculture. And we've done an amazing job doing that. It just happens to be at.

We often talk about it savory or at nRhythm and other places.

Bobby: This all speaks, I think, to the differences between complex adaptive living systems and. Non-living, more mechanical systems. Uh, those are both very front and center in our lives. Everything that we interact with is either one of the two. It falls into one of those buckets. It's either a complex living system or it is a complicated mechanical system.

And that may seem like a, um. That may seem like it's just me being picky about language, but I think there are some inherent truths and differences between complex systems and complicated systems. Um, what is it about complexity that is unique and special that would differ from, say, a  complicated system?

Tre: Yeah. Well, well first of all, I, I just need to pay homage to Alan Savory on all this. Um, Alan, you know, was the first person in, in my life for me to begin to see things very differently. And I would say I was seeing it through. Kind of the lens of what is life now versus what was, and I don't even think was conscious.

What was a more mechanistic, reductionist system that, you know, I was in more of a. Kind of automatic mode, right? Just like you would have in a machine. But the difference that I've learned both from the work with Alan and beyond now, is that complexity can, in, in, in the reality of complexity, complexity only exists in living systems.

There is no such thing as complexity, out complexity outside of the living system. Everything else is a complicated or,  um, even simplest form a simple system. So when we talk about trying to address complexity, it's really coming down to the challenges that we have when we define a problem. And so you get a simple problem, a complicated and a complex problem.

And system science refer complex problems as wicked problems, meaning very, very hard to solve. Not morally bad, but just difficult. Like it's almost impossible to solve it. And part of the reason why it's impossible to solve complexity at its core, there isn't one single, one single underlying cause. There are many.

Bobby: Could you give an example of a wicked problem?

Tre: So wicked problem would be what we see in nature or in human systems where I can't credibly predict the same thing would happen every time using a certain process or  system, right? So one of the things that we learned as a part of Savory Institute, savory is every ranch, every farm is different. So if I.

Plant certain things or do certain things from agricultural activities on one landscape, I may get very different outcomes than I may get in a different landscape, even though it's the exact same process. And that's complexity At its core, you, you can't guarantee you're gonna get the same repeatable outcomes and it has an enormous amount of.

Um, um, variety of inputs too. So you, you, and they could change, right? So think about land management in particular. Uh, it, it could rain more than you want it to rain. It could rain less than you want it to rain. It could, you could have wildlife show up on your landscape when you didn't plan for it. You can have, uh, the sun shine more than you expect it to because of,  um, less clouds.

All those things would impact how, you know, plants would grow and how the underlying ecosystem process would, um, work and all of that is reality. Another example is. Uh, in human systems, right? I've got two boys. They were both raised in the same family, uh, with under the same guidance of the same parents in, in the same schools with some of the same exact teachers, and they are very different people.

Um, why? Because the, the inputs and outputs weren't predictable, right? And, uh. Is the essence.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. so in terms of managing complexity. I think this gets into the difference of management versus [00:17:00] control, and going back to Descartes in that Cartesian split, the view of everything in living world as if it were recognized leads, one, to falsely believe that they can control the outcomes of that living system.

But that's not true, is it?

Tre: No, no, actually, that's the, the, the command and control is at the center of a reductionist, industrialized system because that's what you need to get predictable outcomes. And, and, and it, especially in our current economic system. Everything is designed around what one can predict, so you get higher multiples in the economic system, like in the stock market with returns on stock and all that kinda stuff.

If you can guarantee these outcomes in the next quarter. Or you can ensure this one thing  is going to happen in your organization or your industry, um, that predictability means then we can rely upon it. And if we can rely upon it, then I can build huge systems around it. That is the scientific, industrialized, mechanistic system in, in a, in a living system.

It's about emergence. And there are some predictable outcomes. I'll use one example. If I plant an apple seed, I'm, I'm expecting apples, so I'm not gonna get oranges, right? But I don't know how many apples I'm gonna get. I don't know when I'm gonna get them, and there may be seasons that I can rely on, but it's definitely far broader.

And there's a lot of things that can change. So the variability from one landscape to the next could be pretty substantial. And so, so for me and for the process of management, if everything you're managing is in a complicated way and it is a mechanistic system, like,  I'm gonna get this, I'm gonna take this, um, rocket from here to the.

Then there's a chance of me being able to do that over and over and over again with not very much variability in that. And we've proven our ability to do that. Things we make are very clearly, uh, we, the type of management it needs on the how we're going to manufacture something. And do it in a predictable way is really a complicated process.

But when we think about a comp complex process, it, the, the kind of management is needed is one that is in response to those dynamic changing conditions. And when you have all kinds of changing conditions, management has to be very different and its design has to be very different.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. There's a quote I heard you read when you were giving a talk last year from Donella Meadows, and I wanna read the quote. [00:20:00] She said, the world is a complex, interconnected, finite, ecological, social, psychological, economic system. We treat it as if it were not, as if it were divisible, separable, simple and infinite. Our persistent, intractable global problems arise directly from this mismatch. What is it about that quote that causes you to, to bring that up, and what does it mean to you?

Tre: Yeah, I mean, it, it actually says everything. Um, I, I, her insights into this process, um, her untimely departure from this world, uh, too early, um, she recognized that our approach. For what we are was, uh, the challenge, um, and, and Alan says this, that we tend to take what is a command  and control reductionist.

Mechanistic approach, and we apply it to complexity. When we apply that kind of approach to complexity, we create a lot of unintended consequences, and that's what Danella Meadows is trying to say is that we've got a world that looks like this, that behaves like this, that is this, and we've got an approach that is more designed to address a complicated problem or challenge and not a complex one.

And it is the mismatch of that that creates all of our issues. The reason why we've got so many planetary challenges right now from climate change to water issues, uh, to our ability to to manage energy the way we would, would like to be able to manage energy is all because our approach isn't applicable to the kind of problems that we're trying to solve.

And it needs to evolve. And we, we just haven't done that. And uh, and we've continued to double down on this approach. And it's creating more and more issues, social issues, environmental issues, societal issues between nations. And all of that is coming from a place of, hey, we should just command control and predict, command control and predict doesn't work in a living system.

Bobby: Hmm. Yeah. there's a. What's coming up for me is looking at a living system and breaking it down into individual parts, which I think we're really good at. I mean, you came from the world of, of tech and entrepreneurship before coming into the world of agriculture and regeneration and living systems. I came from the world of biomedical engineering, which, you know, by its definition is, you know, it's the biomedical view of the world.

It's taking the human body and dissecting it into individual parts and trying to control them and gain efficiency, uh, for the sake of health supposedly. Um, but taking this living systems approach to. A whole ecosystem, a whole organism, like a person or a landscape or a business or a society. Um, dividing that into individual parts and then trying to say, okay, this is the metric that I want to optimize.

I, I want to optimize the output of X variable. You may be able to optimize the output of said variable, but in doing so. You're doing that at the expense of so much more. So there's all these externalized outcomes and in a living system, all of outcomes and, and so  you can't really externalize the costs. You can kind of sweep them under the rug at some point.

Tre: Yeah. No, that's exactly right. Uh, the only way you make an industrialized system work is you externalize what you don't want. And, and that's why we have been able to do that. We've created a world where that is the natural process. That is what we've chosen to design around. So industries are now segments, right.

So everything is in a nice little sliver of what it is so that we can then address that, and then we've got specialists who are in those industries. The ability to be a generalist or holistic work working across is something that has been minimized, is even being valuable, right. But  actually in reality, it's the ecosystem process which needs insight.

All of those special specialties can exist. Uniqueness can exist, but that only exists in a way that really allows it to thrive in a living system where you're trying to create conditions for that. In a mechanistic, reductionist system, you, you are controlling all of those things. You don't want, uh, abnormalities.

You don't want someone to do, do more than they expected to do actually, that creates issues in the system. And the more, and the more you do that, the more, and the more you risk putting the system in a place of failure. So Covid is a perfect example of that. We have a highly complicated system in the industrialized agricultural system.

And when Covid happened, that whole thing started, started to implode on itself. The fragility was,  was absolutely discovered in that process. And it was the more nodal or distributed designs of things that could happen in a community or in a cross in a way that, that was very holistic, that actually showed incredible amount of resilience.

Um, so the idea that fragility, um. Is even a current part of the industrialized design is not really understood. I actually, one of the things that we're often talking about in supply chains or what would be better understood as a web or um, a network, is to recognize that, you know, it is the buzzword right now that supply chains are resilient.

Can't exist in a non system. It's impossible. It actually an all the underlying process. You can't  design. For resilience in an ecosystem or in a, in a non-living system because it always needs outside inputs. Um, and so as a part of that process, we've actually began to recognize the current system doesn't serve us, but we really don't know what and how to design it differently because we've been so ingrained in the.

Bobby: Hmm. So resilience you're saying is an emergent outcome. Of a, a healthy system, uh, one that is in right relationship. And, you know, I'm thinking back to, to the quote, you often hear that diversity breeds resilience. So, uh, having a diversity of factors at play, you know, I guess that depends on the.

system that you're talking about.

Tre: Sure, sure. Absolutely. We actually take, uh, we, we often talk about what are the patterns in living systems that would help inform the principles for design. The patterns in living systems that we're paying attention to are patterns of how we organize. Patterns of holism and patterns of relationship.

There isn't any one place that you can put your finger on and say, Hey, this is where everything is. It's all controlled through this one little unit here that doesn't exist. Um, which means your, your approach in terms of how you would manage that would be different, um, if there isn't that, um, as a part of a process.

And you can see as as patterns of relationship that all living systems are developmental, meaning like you need the health and the maturation and the wellbeing of all aspects of that system for it to thrive. Versus we could actually, in most of our organizations and most of our society, minimize people to maximize the, the benefit and the wellbeing of a few, and not need that wellbeing of others because we're using them as resources to extract from so that others can benefit.

Bobby: All of these concepts are foundational to the work that you do at nRhythm. Um, you guys work with different businesses and organizations, uh, to help them manage their, their people operations and their structures, uh, in a way that supports. Regeneration. Um, tell us a little bit about what that looks like.

paint us the broad picture of what is nRhythm and what are you aiming to do in the world.

Tre: Yeah. I think inRhythmemerged, uh, to answer, uh, what I would say Alan Savory says is the key is the, the most important thing for us to answer is how we make decisions. And my experience at Savory and all of the time I spent in, in countries all over the world, in communities all over the world. What we found often was some of the most incredible things that were experienced on farm or on ranch or in communities.

And that life would be at the center of its design. And that's in essence what holistic management has been, and we will make decisions differently. When life is at the center of the design, then when life is not, and, and that really is what we're bringing. So we'll even use as a tagline, what does architecture with life look like?

What does our agriculture with life look like? What does technology with life look like? How do. The way we build things, uh, the way we manage things, the way we do, the things we do in the world, how do we do it? When, um, we know that we, we don't want to extract from life. We, we want to create conditions for more life, and, and we just believe that we, we can't create, um, the outcomes that we want in the world without making those decisions.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. You know, I, I would imagine for you and I who have both spent a lot of time studying system science and living systems and complexity, it's a no brainer for why this is necessary. But I think for a lot of people, I. In this discussion, they might be thinking to themselves, okay, designing with life in mind regeneration. That all sounds nice and good, but it's a little woo woo. It's, you know, what does that actually matter to the bottom line of my business? Um, what's the business case

for running an organization with these living system regenerative principles in mind?

Tre: yeah. Well, let, let me, let me step back to say that, um, I, the only reason the industrialized  system has a business case is because it externalizes. So I just wanna be very clear that the, it does not work there either

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Tre: in terms of it being something that actually is the best business case. It's the best business case because you don't have to pay for most of the resources being used as part of that design.

Right.

Bobby: We don't have to pay for them right now in the

short term. We're kicking the can down the road and we will have to pay for those costs eventually. It's just we're

operating on short time horizons, and if

we were to have a longer time horizon in our decision making and take accountability for that and be forced to take accountability for it, the, the true cost would be factored in.

Tre: Correct. And just think about it for a moment. Let's just use the food system, which you're deeply, um, familiar with. How in the world is a food system that factors in 50% waste a good design?  It's just not, there's not a, there's not a business school in the world that would say, well, that's a good design.

No, no, it's not a good design. It's a design that we've lined, landed on,

but it's not a good design. It's an easy design. And what I would say is that the majority of the designs that we. Are easy when we can extract without having to pay. Um, so what does it look like for us to create conditions for life to be, uh, and when I say life, I'm, I'm talking about all of the underlying things that are needed to sustain us way into the future.

And, uh, and that is people, right? And that is our living planet. And all of those things are used in industry. And so ultimately the only real business case is one that recognizes what are we going to do to regenerate the  underlying life of that system? And in holistic management, we know that when we do that from a animal agriculture standpoint, that means life itself can sustain more life.

I, it actually creates conditions for more life, not less. And we actually believe that to be the case in organizations too. That is the potential that we're experiencing right now in an organization is limited because we're capping the potential across the entire organization. Um, most seats, most roles are not designed.

We've not put a lot energy into designing. That actually utilizes the under underlying resource space in a way that produces even more abundance. And, and we just believe that that's the better design and that the opportunity is, or we believe is productivity is always an outcome of an underlying system.

So if we can create more and more health in the system, then we believe the productivity out of that system could even be better. We don't, and we can't see an example in nature at all, where productivity out a healthy system is less than, it's always more than.

Tre: Yeah, great. Um, the fir, the first thing we would say in any regenerative or living system is you put a emphasis upon capacity building if capacity doesn't exist within the system. You can't accomplish the things you want. And ultimately that means we're, we're taking a, a strongly developmental approach with all team members and staff as a part of this process.

So like your customers, what does that look like? Your suppliers, your vendors, what does that look like? So we, we do a whole mapping process of where we're understanding, uh, in essence what the, the community dynamics are that are around that organization and what does it look like for all aspects, um, or all members of that, um, ecosystem to thrive in that position.

So, so we bring that deeply developmental approach. As a part of that, there are four key areas that we focus in on that we think help them make better decisions as, um, members of that system.  First is, is there are certain things that we believe about the world that we need to get clear about. So our approach is a living systems approach.

So that's in contrast to a mechanistic approach. And most of our beliefs and our designs are deeply rooted in a mechanistic system. So we actually go through a whole process of identifying our current beliefs. The alternative living systems belief, and what can we do to reconcile that in the organization?

So we call it foundational beliefs. What are the foundational beliefs that we need to shift for us to embrace this approach? The second thing is all of that gets translated into what we call an operational identity. That means we have a unique identity as an organization. And that unique identity has form.

And this is our ability to translate that belief into a form and that we're trying to accomplish something, right? We've got a deep seated purpose and that purpose is rooted in a particular  way of doing the work in the world. And we're now trying to say that operational identity, um, can be designed in a way that brings more life or it.

Um, away. And so that identity is something that we help form and we believe the forming of that identity with an, an organization's no different than any other identity. It's just rooted in these living systems, beliefs and designed in a way to allow for those people. And in, in the context of achieving whatever purpose those are design. Then there are two other things. It's about us monitoring. One is health and the other is emergence. So we see it in those four areas that we're designing with these beliefs in mind into an operational  identity that then is alive. If it's alive, that means we are looking to understand the conditions that exist within that identity and just like us as an identity.

So what's healthy about us? And, and, and as a part of that process, things emerge. That we weren't planning for them to emerge. And what is it about monitoring both health and emergence so that then we have this adaptive cycle where energy and information is changing and showing up in form and changing based upon the feedback loops that exist to allow for us to then make different decisions.

Future, and that's really what we do is support the capacity in the system to understand itself, to put it to work in a way that then monitors the health and the emergence of what's happening and reincorporate it back into that  identity and that that cycle continues as a part of.

Bobby: So it sounds like there's foundational. Education that happens to make sure everyone's on the same page. Trying to see if you can get something of a shift in perspective from leadership to to shift from the reductionist top down control to more of a, let's acknowledge the interconnectedness of all the different people, individuals, and, and players and systems that are involved in our organization. And then from there you said you are monitoring for health and emergence. I know that monitoring and having quick, rapid feedback loops are critically important in complex living systems, which we can get to. But I guess what I'm curious about get into the weeds, how do you manage or how do you [00:47:00] monitor. Health and emergence, like

how, I guess one, how are you defining health and then how are you monitoring for it?

Tre: Yeah, so we were really influenced, uh, by the underlying ecosystem process, um, that we all learned and come to better understand through. Proper. So, you know, you think about the mineral cycle, the energy flow, the water cycle, community dynamics as an underlying ecosystem process. We believe similar dynamics exist on organizations and, and actually in all living systems. We, when we think about health in an organization, we think about energy and.

Uh, it's how energy and information is flowing and cycling in that system. We've developed what we call  organizational health assessment. That organizational health assessment doesn't ask questions of productivity and efficiency. That's what you would normally monitor in an organization. It asks questions of energy and information.

Is that energy and information siloing or is it cycling well? Is it flowing or is it being shut down? What does energy and information look like within that operational? What about the structures we have in place that could increase the energy, the flow of energy, and the cycling of energy, the flow of information, the cycling of information in that system, so.

Everything is about creating better and healthier conditions for energy and information to both flow and cycle. So that's, that is what health is for us, and energy is people, uh, in the system, and information is how we make decisions. So information's flowing and then we're trying to make decisions with  that information.

And so obviously you get a bunch of people in an organization that has high energy, they're in the right roles, they're doing work they really wanna be doing in the world, and they feel very supported by the environment that they're a part of. They're gonna show up differently than all the disengagement that we see, uh, in the world today.

And then information as we know, when information is siloed, that means people are making decisions without everything on the table or when information is protected or not shared, because people are trying to, um, manage their own little fiefdoms or their own little. Domain, right? All those things are things that actually shut down energy in the, in, in the organization and shut down the ability for us to make better decisions.

Bobby: Um, I'd like to get into immersions. I think maybe it would be helpful to define what you mean by structures. I know that when you were leading the Savory Institute team through this, because, you know, we were kind of your, uh, your Guinea pigs, I think before nRhythm formed, you kind of incubated this within the, the Savory team. Um, so, you know, we have become well versed in a lot of these processes and this terminology. But I'm remembering that the term structures was one that took some getting used to at first because you think of structures, you think of like a hierarchical structure, like an org chart, or you think of like the, the building itself.

So like, what do you mean by structures in an organization and building those with health of the organization in mind?

Tre: Yeah, I mean, simply it's all the design decisions that we put in place in an organization to help people live out,  you know, whatever role or responsibilities they have, all of that's designed and all of those things are structures. So it could be, it's simple as, you know, um, someone's role to how we communicate.

Uh, to how we compensate, to how we meet together to make decisions. So governance is a structure. In essence, it's all the systems that we've put in place to be able to make decisions together and move forward. We call them structures. And actually, uh, as a part of the early days, you're right, savory Institute was the Guinea pig.

In all this process, we used to call it evolving structures because the key thing that we found in institutions is its inability to evolve. Structures get set up and then they become static. And, uh, and when they become static, that means that at one point in time it was relevant and it was working, but then it stopped working, it stopped being  relevant.

And what does it mean for it to evolve and change based upon the changing dynamics that it's a part of? You know, the environments that it's industry or market or whatever it, so for us, it was really about. Recognizing structures are designed in, in a moment in time and intention from the get go is that it would evolve based upon the changing dynamics in the organization, right?

Changing people, uh, changing customers, changing partners. All of that means those structures would change, but it's all the normal things that you would design in an organization. Uh, the other example, I'll. Um, uh, I know you were you, uh, and I, I don't know if you're doing this now. I thought you may have told me before, Bobby, that you may be starting to do some ultras again or run more,

but I can't remember, but yeah.

Bobby: quite, quite the opposite. My knees

actually can't take it anymore,

so my ultra running days are.

Tre: Or over.  Well, and the reason why I'm gonna bring this up is, is. There are certain things that we all want to accomplish in our life, right? And, and sometimes those are athletic desires. Sometimes they're, you know, experiences that we wanna have. All of that, those outcomes that we want are all because we put the right conditions in place to be able to achieve that.

So that means for you to do ultras like you used to. You had to, you had to, um, train a certain way to be able to do those things, right? If you want to go experience the world, um, and, and you want your family to experience it with you, that means you're gonna have to create the right conditions for your, the opportunity to go achieve this.

the other way we talked about is structures are about creating conditions. That's what structures are. They're creating the right conditions for you to enable that purpose that you've all come together.  And unfortunately, I, think we're, we're, we're doing a lot of work in conditions that are not really conducive for the outcomes we're trying to achieve in a really, in a way that creates a lot of flow, you know, and a lot of, um, good energy.

It usually is usually at the expense of all those things. Just like we've talked about, we know how to, in an agricultural system to create productivity at the expense of the soil. I think for the most part, we create organizations and we can create productivity in organizations at the expense of the people in the system.

And uh, and, and that is a pretty normal outcome of the design.

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Bobby: Okay, so we were talking about monitoring for health and for emergence we covered health. So what does it look like to monitor for emergence in an organization?

Tre: Yeah, so, so emergence is looking backwards. Um, and I'm gonna use this  as a, uh, for, as an individual who started multiple companies, been a CEO of multiple different tech companies, uh, over the years, and I remember as a young CEO, um, getting to the end of the year and us going through the whole process of, of kind of reflecting.

Over the previous year while we're preparing for the new year and how often it was true that I would, and I, and I didn't even consciously know I was doing this, how I would co-opt, meaning I would, uh, embrace what emerged in that year as though I planned for it. And for the most part, I didn't, I mean, if I was really honest myself, there's no way that most of the things that were actually good about what happened in the year was something I knew was going to happen at the beginning of the year.

So what does it look like for you to formalize and to actually go through process recognizing, wow. This happened in a dynamic living system, and now we are learning to figure out what to do with that thing that emerged and what we should incorporate back into our identity, back into our structures. As a part of that process, it actually is a thoughtful, intentional process of we discovered this, this last year wasn't planned, and now  how do we integrate that knowledge, that insight.

Back into the system. let me use an agricultural example. So, um, one of the biggest lessons in my life, and this is not exaggeration for me, uh, when I was over managing the Africa Center, uh, with Alan on behalf of the Africa, the Africa Center for Holistic Management in Zimbabwe, um, I was walking the land with Alan one day.

And there was what would've been traditionally seen as an undesirable species that had emerged. Right. And, and what was interesting was, is that emergence was what Alan was bringing attention to. And he asked the question, you know,

Tre: So, so one of the things that I learned being with Alan at the Center of Holistic Management, that really is an example of emergence. So we were walking, uh, the land one day, there was a species that had emerged that was, you know. Not desirable and one that, you know, in some instances wouldn't have been expected. And the the question he asked is, instead of just saying, Hey, listen, we should just go, uh, if it's an undesirable, we should figure out what we're gonna do to kill that species.  The question he asked that was so transformational for me was, what were the conditions that allowed for that species to thrive at that moment? And, and for me that's part of the practical aspect of emergence. So when something emerges, um, not only do we get to figure out, so what about that should be reincorporated back into the design? What about how that emerged is important? But we get to ask the question, what were the conditions, uh, that allowed for that to emerge? We apply that across everything, behaviors, you know, customer engagements to how we partner across everything. So when something emerges, we're constantly asking ourselves, okay, what, what about the conditions that, um, what about the conditions that allowed for  that to emerge?

Bobby: So really it's trying to get someone to shift their focus from looking at, I think human nature causes us to look closely. I. As close as possible to the outcome that we're trying to achieve. So if we're trying to maximize productivity of our operation, we're looking at, you know, how much money we're bringing in.

We're looking at how, you know, many cattle we're selling, uh, and you know, the price per pound that we're getting, all that, um, the shift that you. Our recommending is to go further back from the output and instead look as early on in the chain as you can or in the web. Uh, I guess it's not a linear chain, it's a circular web of relationships.

And so to, to look as early back as possible to see  what are the conditions that all of those things are happening in, because if you want to change the outcome. You know, I guess this is looking at. The the different levers that are at play, you can get the most leverage by moving further away. You know, kind of if you look at how a lever works, the further you are from that fulcrum point, the more leverage you get when you push down on it.

Versus if you're just pushing really close to that fulcrum point, close to the output, you're not gonna get as much leverage. Um, so if you want to have as great marginal reaction as possible to improving the outcomes in this system, go as far back as you can and what are all the underlying conditions that affect everything else?

Tre: I mean, it, it's an interesting metaphor. Um, and, and, I would say unlike the lever where it's a one-to-one relationship in a living  system, it is a one to mini. So it is kind of like Alan would talk about, you know, peeling the onion. It just keeps. Going deeper and deeper and deeper. And then you recognize that all of these things are interrelated, interconnected, and that's why, um, the idea of a single root cause doesn't exist in a living system. It's about all these interrelated relationships and, and a behavior here changes a bunch of stuff over here. What about that should you be paying attention to? So it's an entirely different way of seeing the world to, to your point. And when we talk about what the conditions are, it actually gives homage to the realities of that versus us saying none of that stuff really matters, which is what we've done in the industrialized system, is to say that I don't care about all those, those things that make it messy.

Let's externalize. I'm gonna use this as an example. I had a, uh, uh, a conversation recently with one of the top two brands in the world, and, and this was the sustainability, let's just say senior vp.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Tre: And this was exactly what this individual said to me. So I'm, it's almost verbatim. I said, well, you know, what we're trying to do is create more resilience in a living system and uh, and that means all of this interconnectedness needs to be considered as a part of that design, the interrelatedness, and said, no, we externalize all that to our supply chain. Purpose because we don't want to manage that so that we can maintain integrity in our share price so that we can get the outcomes that. And so I, I I, part of the  challenge in all this is we can play a particular game under the current design and industrialized system because of how the economy is designed to allow us to make short-term decisions like that and actually get some outcomes. But in reality, when we do those things, when we behave that way. Um, the only way it works is if then we pass on that externality to others who may not have the privilege or the opportunity to actually externalize it themselves. And that to me is the reality of our. Global situation is we have to recognize that interconnected interrelatedness because even if for a moment we pass it on here, that means we're passing it on to a community.

We're passing it on to a family, we're passing it on, uh, to another nation, uh, that all will ultimately have  to, uh, manage it. And, and so understanding conditions actually puts us into a mindset that says, okay. This is not so externalize. This is not something that we just set aside. We have to recognize it as a part of this entire process.

Bobby: You had mentioned that you can't identify a single root cause. Um, in a living system, in a business, in an organization, in a ranch, in any of these, you can't identify a single root cause. If that's the case, how do you determine where to deploy resources?

Tre: Yeah, it's, it's a great question. I, I think you have to be in a place of where you're experimenting on that, and, uh, I think you're, you're trying to understand the best place to put resource based upon your best observation of what's going on. Uh, holistic management  talks about adverse factors in log jams.

Um, that there are things getting in the way of that underlying ecosystem process. And we say that too. So those adverse factors in log jams show up with things that are blocking the energy and the information in the system, right? So what are those things that would allow you to free that energy up and to allow that information to flow, uh, just like you would want the photosynthetic process. So we're looking to free those things up so that it then opens up potential or possibilities and you experiment with that. Um, there is no one way to do that. I, my experience has been that what opens up a system may not be, what is the most rational, logical thing you think would open it up. Um, and, and we've all experienced this in an organization where just somebody's energy shows up that day and it's so contagious  and it captures the essence and, and the energy of everybody else that we're, we're all doing things we didn't think we could ever do. And that had nothing to do with rational, mechanistic cause and effect. That had everything to do with something that we could have not predicted. Nor could we have, could we duplicate again immediately if we wanted to. Um, so what about that would give us insight into, um, experimenting with how we would.

Manage those kinds of dynamics in an organization. Sometimes we would apply it here and sometimes we would apply it there. Um, I I think for us it's, it really is about trying to find ways to, we constantly say we want energy and information to be in its ultimate state of flowing and cycling. And if that is happening and we're freeing it up so that it can flow in cycle, we believe outcomes will take care of themselves.

Bobby: You know, in the example you were [01:08:00] giving of the, the, the food brand, um, who was talking about, Hey, we externalize all of this to our supply chain so we don't have to to deal with it. I imagine you. Run into roadblocks periodically when bringing these concepts to organizations. Are there any, uh, common sticking points where, you know, okay, I'm gonna start getting into this part of, of the work and here I know I have a feeling I'm gonna get some resistance.

Is there, is there a place where you often get resistance?

Tre: Yeah, I mean the first thing that shows up in all of this is, so you're telling me I need to. Care for my people, uh, differently than I'm caring for them now. And, And, I would say yes. Uh, so the ability to nurture, uh, an environment where people are, is different than being able to control and, and push a pull within that environment. And then there's an immediate, where  does that end? Where is, if we talk about the wellbeing of people. Where is my responsibility end and theirs begin? Or where does, where does theirs end? And mine picks up, right, as a owner, operator, team member, whatever. Um, I, I feel like, um, it is kind of a, um, a no win, uh, question, right? It, it, it's an essence trying to, again, externalize what we don't want and focus on what. We can deliver on. And, and I just feel like that's, um, a question that comes up all the time is, what's too much? When can I say That's not, that's not my responsibility, that's your responsibility. I feel like there are relevant, important questions that happen in every organization or every system that needs to be discussed.

Every institution's gonna have to figure out how it's.  At any point in time where they talk about the wellbeing of the individual is not something that should be their responsibility, they will get limited potential. Period, because it's not, it's not designed to be able to create the opportunities for them to be able to thrive.

It's designed for productivity and efficiency, which means it's going to minimize what benefit those individuals receive. Uh, that's gonna be a sticking point in every organization in every. Uh, conversation because they're gonna think, I, this is gonna cost more and I'm not gonna get anything outta it. Right? And, and in reality, um, I think there may be some aspects of what will, uh, require more emphasis and more time and, and more nurturing. But I do believe what comes out of that is potential that was not expected, nor, uh, something that, um. Was a  part of the current, you know, planned design. And, and I think those are the things that, um, probably are the first things that start to create tension points. And do I really want to embrace this approach?

Bobby: Mm-hmm. So you get through these tension points. Uh, are there any case studies of businesses or organizations you've worked with where there has been very notable transformation, uh, in doing this work?

Tre: I, we, we focus most of our attention on what we would call, you know, small, medium sized organizations. So organizations are. Probably most of the ones we've worked with are less than 200 employees, uh, the, the bread and butter of a community. Uh, so they're not gonna be the large corporate brands, though we may, um, serve some teams or  divisions in those, um, brands. But yeah, I mean, we've got multiple examples of, um, organizations that embrace this approach and found themselves. Uh, in a place of where very similarly to landowners who were, who thought they were at their wits end, and there was no other choice, but holistic management and applying and, and re reimagining management actually allowed them to take what was unrealized potential and turn it into something. We believe that was the case with several organizations that we work with. Now, I'll speak about one in particular. That was a small boutique firm, less than 20 people, uh, losing two or 300,000 for that firm per year. Uh, a couple of partners, lot of professionals, uh, and so from a financial standpoint, they were in a really tough  spot. Um, and them embracing us as a, as a partner in this process wasn't necessarily, um, just about doing what was right for the people. Um, for the team, it was what can we do to address our sustainability, our ability to move beyond our current situation. And in three years we, we brought the same approach.

We've just been talking about. Over a period of three years, we saw we have a, uh, whole monitoring protocol, uh, that's called the organizational health assessment. And we use that across organizations to manage, to monitor the, the design of the organization through the lens of, um, energy and information. And we started monitoring that and then making decisions based upon what feedback we got from that, and then changing the structures based off of that. And in less than three years, they went from  losing $200,000 a year to making $300,000 a year. The flip flop of a half a million dollars over a period of three years.

And we, not one time ever. This is just important to say. I never one time talked about the productivity and the efficiency in the business. Those were so, they had projects, they had clients, they had all those things. We didn't address any of that. All we did was support the changing conditions in the organization and all those other things fix themselves as a part of that design because you have motivated people who were being cared for. Who wanted to serve the customer in a way that was meaningful and they recognized those things needed to be addressed and they naturally were. So it's not that those things couldn't have been addressed as well, uh, in a vacuum, like most consultants or, um, organizational design people would've done.  It's just that we believe this approach is about.

To create the right conditions for the team and what it is that you're trying to, uh, to deliver purpose wise in the world. And as we do that, we believe these other things.

Bobby: I wanna double click on that case study a little bit more because I, I think that's really notable. A, a half a million dollar swing. Um, what was it in the organizational health assessment that was identified and what did the company change? Or, you know, could you speak to some of the things that may have led to the chain reaction that led to more productivity down the road?

Tre: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one is, and I think it's just not uncommon, roles and responsibilities and clarity across teams is a big deal. Um, I, I find that most people really don't understand their role and what they're really  responsible for and how that interacts with others. The other thing is, is we encourage people to move from a culture of accountability to responsibility. What does it look like to support people in them having deep responsibility for what they're doing versus somebody else? So we saw a huge shift, meaning people stepping into their roles, feeling and, and behaving in a responsible way. So when you've got people who are clear on what they're needing to do, they know how to interact with others and they feel responsible. You tell me, I mean, I, I feel like the outcomes, again, take care of themselves. It was mostly that. And then the other thing I would say is, you know. A lot of things get lost in translation. Communication is a big deal. And so if we aren't constantly evolving our internal structures to ensure people are informed,  they understand what's happening across an organization so they can make better decisions in the context of their roles, um, it's always going to minimize potential. And then the, the third, we we're, the third thing in this one in particular, we're always looking at power differential. Where's power that is creating, um, poor conditions. And when you're in a, in a process of trying to transition to a more distributed leadership, it creates a lot of, you know, real issues.

Well, those are my responsibilities. I'm the principal of the firm. Um, that's not their responsibility. And, and we in, in essence, blew all that up. Um, we call 'em disturbances where we say, listen, let's just kinda, let's disturb that. It's like a fire going through a landscape. Let's disturb that and, and let's reinvigorate the underlying.  That should happen there. Who and why? People are responsible for certain things. How do responsibility in a way that, uh, builds more of that across the team, and how do we ensure that power? Isn't segregated or segmented or, um, not distributed to everybody in a way that allows for, um, the resilience and, and the opportunity to, to accomplish more, uh, in the context of, um, of that purpose.

Bobby: This distribution of power, the decentralization, like decentralization is a really important concept in living systems. Um, and. I think what's interesting here is rewinding back to your days at the Savory Institute, you were here in the very early days when we were just getting started. You brought the business acumen to the team and decentralization was a key piece [01:19:00] of the design of the Savory Hub network.

Can you speak to, I mean, just paint us a picture of that time and, and how the hub network. I mean, I guess I'm just curious to know more about it because this, you know, predates my time at Savory as well.

Tre: Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Danielle and I, um, spent some time talking through what could we learn from all the history of holistic management and Alan's previous organizations and the movements that happened in multiple different places around the world from Australia and South Africa. Europe and the United States down in, um, south America, people were, there were strong contingent of people practicing ballistic. And what, what was a common thing that allowed us to say, if we're gonna design something. Um, that would have some long-term efficacy,  what would it look like? And, and we found quickly that the current just educator based design, where we just had educators in all kinds of different places, didn't really create enough of a critical mass in any one area. And actually what we found is when, where there was critical mass and the organization was formed like a hub. And Australia was the perfect example of that. Australia had a incredibly strong presence and organizations that were designing, not just individuals that were educated and, and that was a combination of that and some other factors were really good nuggets that gave us insight to, well, maybe there's a different design here. Um, and we also realized. Uh, that in addition to, um, you know, seeing ways to influence, uh, and be a resource to what's happening in given region, we also wanted to be able to show the efficacy of the approach.  So what would that look like? So to have land bases, excuse me, that we could be operating like at a hub. That could then have a farmer ranch or a community member show up and see how this was being put to work closer to them than around the world. That was another thing that was an influence in that design. We didn't want them to have to fly all the way to the US or fly to Zimbabwe to see at work. What does it look like to show somebody in your own backyard that it's. So we were trying to blend this, um, network, um, that had both a global reach but had a, that deep local touch and, and that it could and should be, uh, something that we could resource and support, uh, in those given regions.

Bobby: Hmm. And you mentioned [01:22:00] network. Network effect, I would imagine is what you were hoping for to be able to create the conditions for network effect and the impact that. From there. Can, can you speak to the concept of, of network effect and why that's important in this strategy?

Tre: By the way, that's another great example in a living system. Uh, where, you know, there is this, um, natural influence that happens that is far greater than what would've been that linear input you would've expected. So the mechanistic machine design, one plus one will always equal two. You're never gonna get a machine to deliver more than what it was designed to deliver. In a living system or to use what does show up in a network effect is there is a reverberation  of this across something that actually has far greater impact than what was quote unquote the energy input input. And, and, and I think that really we saw in spades in all kinds of different ways. Now, we had a couple of really, in the early days. That supported that and one thing, and it was, it was emergent. We didn't know that this was gonna happen. It was when Alan and I was sitting in the audience when Alan delivered his TED Talk, and we all looked at each other and went, wow, that just happened. And we had no idea that what just happened was going to be millions and millions of views and influence and impact all over the world. And again, um, I wish the, the, the, the hub strategy had been in place just a year earlier than that. It would've allowed us to, to  benefit from all of that energy that was created from that one moment. Uh, and it really was, it's a perfect example of a, a moment. That created energy far beyond what could have been rationally or scientifically, um, um, thought about.

Bobby: Well, and I gotta give credit to that moment. I mean, you're saying, you know, I wish we would've had the hub strategy in place a year prior to, to capitalize on that energy. I feel like there has been plenty of capitalizing on that energy. Even to this day, if

we ask people, Hey, where did you first hear about holistic management or Alan Savory, you know, nine times outta 10, it's the TED Talk.

So, um, that definitely is still having a lasting impact on all of

Tre: It. And what's crazy, and I know that's not the subject of our conversation there, but what's crazy about, uh, that moment is I, I  listened to Alan. We all listened to Alan just, you know, days before that. And

it was nothing like what he delivered that day. And uh, it was, it was, it was a moment. Um, and I am proud to have been in the audience when that was delivered.

I, we were all in awe. Uh, it was incredible. And I consider myself a, um, uh, a good speaker and I, I remember sitting there going, wow, he just nailed it. And uh, and I think what we're seeing from all of that is the reality. I mean, he, his whole essence came together in a moment. In that moment, created abundance that we could have never imagined. And, and that's, that's life. Life can only do that. Life can only do that. You know, a machine can't do that. It's never gonna have anything emergent about it. It's gonna either be how it's designed, or it's gonna have to be fixed around that design, or that  design's gonna have to change. But there's nothing emergent about a machine. Um, and so to me that's a incredible, that was an incredible moment.

Bobby: Yeah, it absolutely was. I wish I could have been in the audience for that. Um, aside from Alan and holistic management, are there any other, uh, thinkers or schools of thought, uh, authors or um, organizations who have been particularly influential in your life and informing what is now. And nRhythms framework and how you work.

Tre: Sure. I mean, uh, the beauty, uh, as at the rhythm team, we talk about this all the time, and we were just talking about that, that, um, we were looking at a. Um, one of the original workshops I did, uh, coming out of Savory, you know, several years ago now, and how much has evolved and changed  since then. So it is pretty substantially. Different, uh, not at its essence, but inform, uh, to be able to support people and, and, truly putting it to work. And that's been a team thing. Uh, Jeff Sue, who used to be on the board at Savory and uh, is kind of, um, a part of the team and, and has been a part of us landing this in. That what we're talking about really, uh, is us continuing to recognize and explore the ideas behind. Living systems in our best way to design for the future that we all want. Um, there's been a lot of incredible, um, adaptations and, and changes associated with it all that's influenced this, that really has been a team effort. Um, and I'm just one  of those people, uh. Then you've got others like Capra, uh, which is really, I think he's probably one of the leading edges of living system science that we really look to, to better understand.

So what does this look like when we think about social and living systems and how we make decisions? Carol Stanford, who, um, recently passed away. And, um, I had the pleasure of spending a lot of time with her and, um, reimagining incredible developmental approach, which I learned from her. And, uh, and what that meant to, to recognize that if we're really going to, um, create the best possible conditions. Uh, our own development and the development of others that was most important in that. And then, uh,  then, you know, incredible, uh, confirmations from indigenous cultures, wisdom, um, uh, both traditions, uh, and even some of my faith-based, um, communities that, um. Are recognizing that, you know, life, the way that we've designed it, uh, to drive, um, a particular productivity outcome has really. I've done some damage, uh, to our souls, to our soils, um, damage to, um, the realities of our emotional, um, spiritual and psychological wellbeing. And, and so for me, you know, it's recognizing that there are many different, uh, individuals movements, uh, cultures.  Um, communities that have said, you know, this is not the way we want to live life. Uh, nor nurture the life that we're all a part of. And in all of that, we believe we're taking into consideration as we are, uh, hoping to be a real resource to communities, organizations, institutions, is they reimagine a society that isn't designed the way it currently is.

Bobby: Yeah, well. I think if you look at the news or you look at the land, or you look at social media, it's very clear that there's a lot of healing and there's a lot of regenerating that needs to happen across the board in a lot of different areas. Um. Thankfully and Rhythm is out there with programs and support systems and ways for folks to get involved.

Um, say someone is interested in taking the first step  in changing how they run their business or their organization, um, where do folks get involved?

Tre: Sure. So, um, so there's a free community, um, and, and I say free, which lots of resources and opportunities for you to engage with people who are, you know, thinking about this themselves. Um, we've had over 3,400 people take our courses from 81 countries over the last. Three or four years. And so the substantial amount of movement with people that feel really rooted in this and, and, that, uh, mighty Networks community that we have right now is roughly about 2000 people. And all with people that are, um, looking to engage in and connect with others who are, um, asking some very similar questions. So we just encourage, uh, it's called our with life community.  That's one of the things that we tried to do in, in, in putting this together is what would, what would be some language that people would resonate with and regeneration, even though, um, I was, and savory was early days of one of the first people to ever even use that term in the context of agriculture. The reality is, is, um, we, we believe most people still don't understand what that means. Use it with life as a way to be able to help make that more resonating, uh, with people. And so what does it look like to design, um, the, your, uh, your community, your roles, your organizations with life in mind and, uh, so the with life community designed to support that. You can engage in to be a part of that, but it's  uh, um, that's probably the best place to start.

Bobby: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, we will put a link in the show notes and under this video for anyone that's watching on YouTube, we'll put a link to nRhythm's website, uh, so that you can find all the different programs and get involved. Um, I guess, you know, as we start to wrap up here. I'm, I'm wondering, you know, what you see ahead for the future and you know, that's kind of a broad question.

Intentionally, like what do you see for the future for nRhythm for business? You know, how business is managed for land management and agriculture, you know. You've spent a lot of time in a lot of different industries, deep in the weeds with incredibly high performers that are tip of the spear. Um, and I know that you spend a lot of time looking for  patterns because patterns are so important to living systems, and so I'm wondering what patterns.

You might be seeing evolve and emerge in society and in business, and where do you think we're going with that in the future?

Tre: Yeah, it's, um, it's a great question. A lot of what's just happened in, in, in the us um, and obviously that reverberates across the world because the US has so much influence and impact, uh, unfortunately on so many different people. I would say, um. In, in one part of a system that is in a place of disturbance, which I think our capitalistic systems are in place of disturbance.

Bobby: Hmm.

Tre: the, our economic systems are in a place of disturbance. On one side, you see a substantial amount of  trying to protect and not lose what someone has had. So that is a pattern that's showing up and we're seeing that show across. Everywhere. And, uh, and that's that last ditch effort to save something that has been meaningful, uh, for some, um, and, uh, and, and how do we protect it?

How do we control it? How do we make it ours? And then on the flip side, we're seeing the absolute opposite where the breaking down of silos where there is. People recognizing that society can't and shouldn't be measured based in industry, uh, based in segments, based in sectors, uh, that, um, there is something beautiful about crossing boundaries, societal boundaries, like national boundaries to industry boundaries. And that's, to me, what I'm most excited about. I,  I think we have the opportunity to recognize that. And to design that part of our specializations has created, uh, um, conditions that, um, reinforce a mechanistic design. And I think it's really important for us to, uh, continue to support movements and people and cultures that say, uh, there's a better way. And, um, the other thing I'm recognizing is there really is a blending. Of what is kind of people's personal and professional development and what is spiritual and what is, you know, um, a a natural part of someone's own family or individual, um, life and all of that started to blend together in ways that I, you know, not even 20 years ago would, I would say that would've, I would, I wouldn't have thought  that would've been possible.

Um, where so many different things are coming together and opening people up to possibilities that, um, recognize that the way they were seeing the world. Uh, through that one lens is I'm beginning to recognize that that's only one lens and, uh, and that there are many others, and how to, how to open our eyes to, uh, to see it through them as well. So those are probably the things that I am seeing happen and, um, and nRhythms really committed. To see a societal shift. So our intention is to show this can work in architecture, in manufacturing, and technology, in agriculture, in education, in um, how we do healthcare and how we commune together. So it's, it's audacious.

It's, I mean, for us, I mean, I know that to see the outcome of what we're committed to will not be in my  lifetime. Um, but I'm excited that, um, I believe there is a resurgence of people who recognize. It, it can be better. Uh, and we will serve our lives, our communities, future generations and the planet, uh, as a, as a nesting ground for us, uh, in ways, uh, if we, we care for and nurture, uh, the life that exists in all of that.

Bobby: I appreciate that reframe of looking at. All the chaos that is happening around us and looking at it as a disturbance session and that that disturbance, although, uh, painful, uh, at times I. Can be a necessary component of what is otherwise a healthy cycle. The, the birth growth, death decay. It's that death and decay part that, you know, I think human nature, we try to [01:39:00] shy away from, you know, a lot of folks don't want to admit their own mortality and, you know, so discussions of death and, uh, you know, the, the.

The silver lining that can come from the passing of things. I mean, it's essentially composting things to bring about new life and new fertility and reframing the what's happening in geopolitics or, you know, you know, pick your global crisis, um, that is happening. To look at that through the lens of. A disturbance session and being a necessary component to then create the fertile ground for these new systems to emerge.

Um, yeah, that can certainly bring a lot of hope.

Tre: Tons. Absolutely tons. Yeah. As, as, as, as we begin to recognize that living systems only work and only work in flows and cycles, uh, allows us to  be able to say, so where in that flow or cycle are we? And um, and right now we, we are definitely seeing. Uh, the death of all kinds of different aspects of our society. And so the composting and the reorganization is what's what we're in for. And uh, and, and then new forms. New forms that I think can hold, um, the essence of regeneration versus, um, shut it down. So I think that is, that is hope.

Bobby: Yeah, and with the reformation, with the emergence of new systems. It's not a, it doesn't require just a passive approach that, hey, we'll just let things, uh, form organically and see what happens. We can influence the direction that these things are headed, and, and that's one of those principles of living systems is you can't [01:41:00] control them.

But you can influence them. You can put guardrails up and try to, you know, like you put up the bumpers at a bowling alley, like, all right, we're gonna have the guardrails here to make sure that the ball stays in the lane so it moves in the direction we wanna head it into. And so, you know, as these new patterns and systems emerge.

In our world or in our businesses or on our landscapes, um, to make sure that we're monitoring accordingly so that we can help move things in the direction that serves all.

Tre: Actually, Bobby, I, I would one step further and say, I think as a species, we, we are condition makers and, and we have the ability to create conditions that most species don't have the ability to do, which puts more responsibilities on our plate. Allows for us to do exactly what you just described. I think we can create  conditions that can shift.

We just saw what creating conditions for the industrialized society did. What does it look like for us to be creative, opportunistic, continue to reframe and, uh, reimagine a healthy, uh, context for us and create conditions for that. And, uh, and I think it's possible. I actually, to be honest. I am saying this more, and I'm being a little more bold when I say it now. We've gotten lazy, uh, the whole industrialized, I mean, how easy is it to extract and then make money from something we didn't have to pay for? Um, I mean, I, I mean I, I, I don't want to oversimplify, but that's what we've done. Uh, and we've our. Life means we've got to be more intentional. We've got to be more receptive. We've got to be more curious. We've got to be more engaged. Well, we've just gotten fucking lazy is what we've gotten.  And uh, and ultimately I, we don't have capacity in the system to behave that way. 'cause we hadn't had to. It's, and uh, and I feel like this is the opportunity for us to step into a way of being means. We, we, we gotta step up into it and, uh, and, and do it differently and bring the same energy we can bring to lots of things like the industrial process we bring to a life giving process. And I feel like things would change and the conditions would be different and the experience for all of us and the abundance that it would create, uh, would change all of our lives and the future generations that would be a part of this.

Bobby: Well, you heard it here first. Tre Kate says, everyone gets, get off your lazy asses and start living in right relationship with the living systems that you exist in, and that you manage and that you depend on because you [01:44:00] depend on them. Our future generations depend on them, and we can do it. Wonderful.

Well, Tre, thanks so much for time taking the time to talk today. I love nerding out on systems and this has been a really fun conversation. Again, there will be links to all of nRhythm's work and various different folks we've talked about in the show notes. Um, any last words of wisdom you wanna leave with folks or, or final comments?

Tre: Yeah, just a big thank you to you and. To the Savory Institute, to Alan Savory and Daniel Howell and all, um, of those who have been a part of this work for decades. Um, uh, I, I am a result of that work and,

uh, and this is, and has been influenced by that work, and I'm more than grateful.

Bobby: I'm noticing. Another living systems pattern right here, which is the fractal nature of things. You're giving credit back to them, but I also need to give credit back to you because you're the one that hired me about eight years ago. So everything has living systems patterns embedded in it. Awesome. Well, thanks again,

Tre: I really appreciate you.

Bobby: This episode was edited by Claire Everson and her theme music was composed and performed by Travis McNamara. Ruminations is a production of the Savory Institute, the Savory Foundation, and Land to Market. If you like this episode, please consider leaving us a five star review on Apple Podcast and subscribing to our YouTube channel where you can find video versions of all episodes plus other content.

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