This Regenerative Vineyard is Redefining Terroir

Bobby: Hello everyone and welcome back to Ruminations. I'm your host, Bobby Gill. Today we're headed to the rugged windswept ridges of Mendocino County, California to talk about what it really means to steward a vineyard regeneratively, not just in name, but in measurable ecological outcomes. In this episode, we'll explore how a family run off-grid vineyard at 2,400 feet became the first in the world to receive land to market verification.

How holistically managed livestock cover crops and other regenerative strategies are changing the playbook for viticulture and why the wine industry's deep reliance on additives and practice-based certifications is ripe for radical reset. To walk us through it all. Our guest today is Michael Frey of Mariah Vineyards and Dirt Wine, together with his wife Nicole, who unfortunately couldn't make it for the interview today because she's taking care of their newborn baby.

They manage Mariah Vineyards, which is the world's first EOV verified vineyard, and Nicole had the distinct pleasure of growing up. On it. Her parents established it over 40 years ago. and then in 2021, Mariah Vineyards produced the first ever land market verified wines. They've navigated the learning curves of transitioning a vineyard to regenerative.

They've had the hard conversations to bring the older generation along for the ride. And most recently, they've launched dirt wine. It's a new wine brand focused on radical transparency and nature positive outcomes. All of which we'll get into in this episode. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Michael Frey of Mariah Vineyards and Dirt Wine.

But first, a word from our sponsors.

Bobby: Michael Frey, welcome to Ruminations. How you doing today, sir?

Michael: good. thank you very much for having me.

Bobby: Yeah. How is life with a four month old?

Michael: extremely exciting, extremely intense. but now with, with four month, there's a lot of interaction happening, a lot of laughing happening, a lot of moving and, know, all, all the, the, the exploration about the beauty of life. So I am, I am deeply in love and really excited. A bit tired, but deeply in love.

Yeah.

Bobby: Yeah. It's, I think, in all of our worlds, it's all about adding complexity to the holes that we manage, and you have definitely added a layer of complexity to the operation that you guys have going on out there with a newborn. So congratulations on the new baby.

Michael: thank you very much. you too, by the way. Yeah.

Bobby: you. Yes. I've got a two month old, Michael's got a four month old, so we're both, starting to get some sleep. if we have bags under our eyes, that would be why. all right. Well, let's, not bore folks with our, personal family matters. but let's get into regenerative viticulture, which is what we're here to discuss today.

unfortunately your wife Nicole, could not make it because she's taking care of the baby, but, you guys farm at her parents' vineyard where she grew up in Mendocino County in California, north of San Francisco. give us an overview of Mariah Vineyard's, I guess possibly even dirt wine. But we'll get into that, in a bit.

And just like where you're located, what it's like, and, and how you guys arrived to where you are today.

Michael: Mariah Vineyards is a family owned and operated vineyard in the Mendocino Ridge. Appalachian. you mentioned, it's north of San Francisco. it's sitting at about 2,400 feet the first Ridge line to the Pacific Ocean. and, we are extremely passionate about regenerative viticulture. so we farm without chemicals.

we are working with you guys, our land to market verified, integrated cheap, and, and it all the magic, that, encompasses this topic. my parents-in-law, Vicki, Founded and built this vineyard from the ground up. So it's, it's an absolutely, an absolutely amazing, amazing journey actually from, to, to, to move up there, on the ridge top of the grid, on the spring. to, to put in a vineyard. if you ever have been on the vineyard, that means you have to, you have to build a deer fence. you have to plant root stocks, you have to irrigate the root stocks, you have to build a trellis. then you have to create the whole infrastructure that actually live up there. and then, and then on this journey, they, raised four kits out in the woods, in this beautiful, beautiful off-grid place. That's, that's, that's about Mariah. That, that's about Mariah, my wife Nicole and I, we, we stepped in, we stepped in, now about six years ago. mostly, mostly because we got really sparked with, with re region regenerative agriculture and, that, that there's a place or, or, a vineyard, where we can, where we can farm and try and make our own experience and, and, and try to push the needle and, and push frontiers. that's, that was absolutely beautiful. So we went back to the vineyard and, working on that.

Bobby: Yeah, and we've been connected now for a few years. Mariah Vineyards was the first ever. Ecological outcome, verified vineyard in the global program. And then that led you guys to develop the first ever land of market verified wines, which were released in 2021. Is that right?

Michael: 2020. Yes.

Bobby: Yeah. Okay. And everything you guys do is dry farmed, you guys do cover crops, you integrate grazing livestock.

What else? give us the, the stack of the, the different things that are happening on your vineyard that create, the end product. What are your different farming methods and techniques that are in place?

Michael: I will dive really deep into that. and I will provide you with, I I would like to speak about, the sparks too.

Bobby: Okay,

Michael: did we, so

Bobby: great.

Michael: did we, so, how did we get there, if

Bobby: Yeah, let's, let's do that. Yeah. Let's, let's not get right into the nitty gritty. We'll, we'll start with the path. Okay. Wonderful.

Michael: Yes. so my wife and I, we met, met, traveling in Peru. I was, I was on a world trip. she took a few weeks off. so, we catched up in Peru and, And, fell in love, traveled forward and backward, the globe and, and then to Switzerland. And then, to make a decision actually, on which side of the, of the ocean that, that we live.

I'm originally from Switzerland. That's where I have this accent. and it's quite a distance between Switzerland and California. so knowing that, that we wanna stay together, we, to make a decision and decided that we live in California. this, on this path, this path, we had the possibility to, to meet, to meet and connect with a lot of different people.

one of one of these people was Paul Dolan. I'm not, I'm not sure if you, if Paul Dolan or if you knew Paul Dolan. Paul Dolan was president of Fetcher, he was, he was, An amazing visionary and pioneer in, in sustainable organic biodynamic farming. He was a big believer in, in Rudolph Steiner. and then, in, the end, in the end of his life, he was, he was, the Regenerative Organic Alliance, to actually create the, the ROC certification. so he was really looking forward and he was really into, into regenerative viticulture. So during this period when, when I moved to, to California, we had, we had lunch once with him.

we were, we were exploring, we, we were exploring, different avenues how we can move forward with our lives. and, and I vividly remember, meeting him at, in Hillsburg and, And, and his talk about regenerative, viticulture regenerative agriculture. potential to bring back biodiversity, to sequester carbon, to living, to, to farm in favor of life, to create, flourishing ecosystems while producing actually, absolutely amazing flavors and the nutrient-dense products. And, Nico and I were so inspired. We were so inspired by this launch, that, that, we started digging in. We, we actually, we actually went down the rabbit hole. we read about regenerative viticulture. we, we read about the practices and, and, and. Never stopped on, on, on this path, ever since. one, one of the recommendations that Paul did during this launch was to go to Boulder, to the regenerative first summit. lucky us, we stayed in the same hotel like Will Ferris, Harris, and, and that was an additional spark, because we had some glasses of wine at the bar. And he spoke about his experience, and, you guys have to meet the Savory Institute.

guys have to meet, the hub in California. That's how the whole, the whole, the whole process started with, with Savory, with, Land to market with, piloting the ecological outcome verification, and with a deep dedication, outcomes and, and, to learn as we go.

To embrace, to embrace complexity and holistic land management.

Bobby: Was there anything specific at that Regenerative Earth Summit in 2019? I believe you said it was, I think I was there at that event 'cause it's just right up the road from me and I was not at the hotel bar, with you guys. Although I have closed down many a hotel bar with Will Harris, at different conferences, so I know how that goes.

definitely a blast. But what, what was it about that event that really lit a fire under you guys to go down that path? Was there any particular talk or anyone that you met there that had, that gave you a light bulb, aha moment, more so than these talks that you were having previously with Paul Dolan?

Michael: Paul Dolan was the spark and the first summit was finding the tribe. sounds, it sounds really cheesy, but, but it was, it was, being in a community that, that all worked in the same direction. it was, was the different talks that were there. It was the different people that were there.

It was, it, it, it, it, it was more to, to to see people and to speak with people where, where values align. so, it was, it was, Extremely motivating. It was extremely motivating. There was a talk of a doctor, that spoke about, that spoke about the potential, that, potential of region related agriculture in with health

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: in, in, in connection, health, that sparked, Nicole tremendously.

And Nicole is an emergency nurse. there was Will Harris, also Nicole that connected with him. I'm more the hermit of, of the gang, and she's more the outgoing, socializer.

Bobby: Yeah, that's more of the strategy here with the podcast today is we wanna hear more from Michael. leave,

Michael: Yeah.

Bobby: leave

Michael: Sad.

Bobby: interview.

Michael: it's sad that she's not here. She's,

Bobby: I know

Michael: passionate and, and full of fire,

Bobby: she is. Yes. S.

Michael: so, it was, it was, Paul was the spark. was, finding the tribe that actually led us, back to, to Nicole's parents, to Nicole, to Nicole's parents, and to say, Hey, that's such an amazing field.

we have to do that. are you willing, are you willing to, to do an experiment with us? are you willing to, that we come up on the vineyard, that we support you guys? that, that we bring a lot of innovation and craziness to this place. are you willing to, to go down this path with us? and, my parents-in-law said, heck yeah.

Bobby: Now when you guys got this spark, were you guys already involved in management on the vineyard at all or no? No. No, you weren't. Okay, so you're meeting with Paul Dolan. You go to this regenerative Earth summit. Nicole is an ER nurse. You guys meet while traveling the world. Was your head in agriculture at all?

Were there talks about going back to the vineyard and making a life there? give us a little bit of the, the timeline and where you guys were just prior to the spark.

Michael: I have, background in hospitality and marketing. I was, I was blessed to work in a really cool food company, in, in Switzerland, in Liechtenstein. I was leading sales and marketing teams, and I have a tremendous passion for food, business development, innovation, consumer, so on the consumer side actually, but far away from agriculture. Nicole grew up on the vineyard, has a background in in agriculture because she lived up there. so, what her parents are doing, but has a passion for, for, for nursing and, and, and the health and yeah, for, for emergency nursing. A actually specifically, She didn't study agriculture.

She has a background in, marine, marine biology. but then found her passion in nursing and worked in this realm. So we are far from agriculture, deeply interested in food. What's in food? is food grown? What do we put in our bodies?

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: how can we live an as healthy and as fulfilling life as possible?

so we are away from agriculture, but still connected to agriculture. So when we learned about the regenerative. agriculture movement and its potential to grow nutrient dense food. and Nicole realized that a lot of things that are coming into the emergency room, actually preventable. so she always says there's nothing better than than western medicine in when, when really hits the fan, right?

To keep your life, to do that. But there's also a lot of stuff that comes in there, that would have actually be, would be preventable, if you would, if you would have a, a healthy lifestyle and if you would have access to, to good nutrient dense foods. so the passion was here and, and I think it, it was, it was. It was, just, just required the spark. so I was, I was working, Mariah, during the transition time when I came, when I came, from Switzerland, to California, I wasn't allowed to work, because I didn't have a work visa, but I was, I was able to volunteer. So I, I, I actually volunteered up on the vineyard and, and, found that, found a deep, deep passion farming a crop, actually.

So I'm really. Passionate about, the environment. and I'm really passionate about food. And, soon as you have the possibility to go out and to farm a crop and, and to combine both passions, I think that that really did it for me and the health, and the health aspect and the farming aspect.

It is for Nicole.

Bobby: Hmm.

Michael: A long, a long answer for a short question. I'm sorry for that.

Bobby: Quite all right. We, it's a podcast. We can go as long as we want.

Michael: Okay.

Bobby: to the listeners if this goes long

Michael: Yes,

Bobby: I don't know either or. okay. You realize that there is more that can be done in viticulture, and you guys are excited to try this on the vineyard that Nicole has grown up on in Mendocino.

What are those conversations like then when you come back to the vineyard and you're talking to Nicole's parents who have, farmed this land for 40 years, who, built it from the ground up. how did those conversations go and Yeah, I, yeah, how did the conversations go?

Michael: really good. it was, it was a, a, a spark that, that chomped over. So my parents-in-law farmed the vineyard. a, in a really good way. far away from hardcore industrial, in industrial, agriculture. so I don't think that our step was, was really big, to, to push the needle. and, and my, my parents-in-law were really supportive. they were really, they were really excited to see a kid of theirs, intrigued actually, with, with farming. and, and I. think that they welcomed that, a son-in-law and, and the kid actually support on the ground. it's, it's not, it's not just we are coming back and we have this crazy idea and now we implement. was more, it was more a discussion. We have crazy ideas, or not crazy ideas, just normal ideas. but we are also happy to be on the ground and, and to, to help and, and to do all that stuff. and I think, I think, five years ago it was, and this, and still is a, a, a win-win situation. So it's a win-win situation for my parents-in-law because they have support, and they have, people that, that research, that connect, that build a network, reach out to universities that have research on the ground, that collect data all over the place to push the needle, and to, and, and to extend the, the life of, of the wines and, and the vineyard and, and therefore the legacy. and it's a win for, for Nicole and I because, we were able to, to execute on our idea. So, we are not talking theoretical, theoretical, regenerative, viticulture idea. we are executing, regenerative viticulture idea learning, doing a lot of mistakes and, and that also. some success with it.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. So what did that path to that, that transition to a more regenerative approach on the vineyard, what did that look like? What were the first steps that you guys took and what followed?

Michael: the first step, the first step I think was, was a mindset shift, from existing farming to, to holistic, long-term perspective. it's still, it's still the, the biggest, it's still the biggest discussion that we have, is the mindset. it's not the execution. and then we started with, soil health. So we read a lot about soil health, we started to. Take measurements to create, to create a, a, a baseline, on our property, actually know what's going on. I am, I am a, a really big fan. I, about outcomes. It's maybe also from my past. I was in sales and the marketing, I, I was, I was managing my teams paid on facts and on figures. and, and I was always really interested in knowing what's going on. So why not, on a ranch land to market and the ecological outcome verification was the perfect fit for us. So, we traveled previously and, and looked for something like that. and, and, and you guys actually provided for us, Quite the tailor, the tailor made fit for us. So, it was, was quite exciting. so the first step was the baseline. We had, we had, the UV hop, on the property. we did, 10 short-term sites. We did three long-term sites. we have 30 acres of, vineyard, we have 30 acres of pasture, and we have forest. so we did this measurement and on this space, we started to implement practices. we, increased the, the biodiversity of our crop cover crop tremendously. we, implement the cheap in our system.

Bobby: When you say you, you changed or you increased the diversity of your cover crops, so does that mean, her parents were using cover crops prior to you guys coming in? Okay, so their, their land management seemed to be. F moving in this direction in that it was dry farmed. They had cover crops organic, I assume.

and so your first take was to do the EOV baseline then get a greater diversity of cover crops in the mix then you were saying integrating sheep. Okay. Sorry to interrupt. Just wanted to

Michael: no,

Bobby: a sense.

Michael: it's all good. so in VD culture, I think, cover crops are, that's just basic. That's, that's what people do. So, it's not a step, it, it, it's not, quite an innovation to, to, to implement cover crops in,

Bobby: Okay.

Michael: I am, I think pretty much everybody, much everybody is doing that,

Bobby: Hmm.

Michael: especially, especially legumes, nitrogen fixers and, and stuff like that.

and then there's, mostly in, in viticulture it's plow down mixes where they plow it down, certain time, of the season. cover crops is, is general. that doesn't mean that, that the biodiversity of the cover crop is really wide. So, it's, it's, it's quite similar stuff that, that our people that people are using. my parents-in-law, my, my parents-in-law, did that too, of course. cultivated underneath the wine rose, like, like, over 90% or 99% of, of viticulture is doing. and then in the past, the, the, the rows between the wines were, were disk two and then a bit farther down. You disk every other row, every are every year.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: And I think that the big changes that, that we brought in was, hundred percent ground cover. so to get rid of cultivation in any place on the vineyard, so not just you drive with the tractor, but also underneath the wine rolls, especially in the dry farm system. So my parents, my parents were irrigating the, the vineyard when they, when they, the vineyard, and for the first years, when they had, when they had the vineyard. and then while, While, drip, when, when there was a moment in time where the drip lines, started deteriorating. so a decision had to make, actually, keep on going with irrigation or can we get rid of it? And my parents-in-law, made a really smart move. got, got, professionally involved that did neutron probes, on the property, for, for several years actually, and, and showed them and that the irrigation is not necessary up on the site where they are. they were able to turn off, the water, but perspective, the long-term perspective of them was always, to farm the place without irrigation. The right root stock was selected, the right spacing was selected like they did in the past. their mindset went in this direction. Yeah.

Bobby: Hmm. Okay, so, you increase the diversity of your cover crops,

Michael: Yes.

Bobby: you get a hundred percent ground cover. The integration of livestock. I guess I'm curious there, and here's where I probably am out of my normal domain. I'm not as familiar with viticulture and how these aspects work with livestock. So when you're integrating animals into a vineyard, are there considerations that need to be made with respect to timing of when these grazing events are happening or the proximity of, the livestock, to the, the vines?

how does that work?

Michael: It's all about context, right? It's all about, where you are and, and, and, and, and what you do, in, in viticulture in general. we can bring in livestock until, bots break, depending on system, depending on how high that your wines are. But break in, in our case is about April because sheep like butts and you don't want to have sheep eating your crop.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: so we can graze vineyards, as soon as we have some grass that they can eat until but break. there's some, there's quite a movement currently, in Viti culture. Kelly Ville from the to the high Trellis system, halter Ranch has now a high trellis system. and, and there's more and more plantings where they, where they race, actually the wines and the, the

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: that you can graze sheep 365 days a year. I think really, really interesting. But, but we can't just take our vineyard and, raise it. So we are limited with that, abouts break.

Bobby: So do you have sheep that are on the property year round or are you getting contract grazers to come in and graze in the vineyards?

Michael: contract grazers,

Bobby: Okay.

Michael: out of several reasons. We are, we are surrounded by forest and mountain lions and bears. so it requires knowledge, it requires sheep, dogs, that are there. then on the other hand, am on one side a farmer and on the other side, I'm a son-in-law, so I can't just, I'm not living up on the property, so I can't just bring up 50, a hundred, 200 cheap all year long and then leave and tell my parents-in-law, know?

Thank you very much. no, that's, it's, it's contract grazing what we do.

Bobby: Gotcha. are there any aspects of the old school way of farming that Nicole's parents have done for decades that you guys still maintain that maybe isn't as regenerative as you would like it to be, but because of tradition or legacy? There are some things that, remain in management. I.

Michael: It is a process. Oh, that's such a neutral, that's such a, that's such a, such, such a Swiss

That's such a, that's such a Swiss answer. it's a, it, it's a process. when my parents-in-law farmed the vineyard looked completely different than what we imagine, than what we imagine in a regenerative system, right?

So, I. the past, a vineyard was maintained like a golf course. It was mo it was cultivated there. There's a certain look that, a vineyard, that a vineyard has

Bobby: mm-hmm.

Michael: to, has,

Bobby: And uniform and.

Michael: and unif and, and clean. it's also a business card when people come up, you show. and it's deeply, deeply, deeply ingrained in, in, in, in, the generation, in the generation that, that farmed previously vineyards. when, when we, when we imagine a vineyard, are shooting for complexity. I'm, I'm shooting for complexity in cover crops. I'm shooting in complexity, of the ecosystem. I, I'm shooting in complexity of beneficials, biodiversity. I'm shooting for all of that, not because I think it's cool. I think it's cool, but I'm shooting for that because complex complexity equals, climate resilience. are, we are hit with heat waves. We are hit with heavy rains. we are, we are hit with, with all this, this, this craziness in the last few years. And in my personal opinion, complexity, allows us to create a system that can deal with all these extremes. So if you brace, if you embrace complexity comes, With, results that you have a bit higher grass there and that you have a bit flowers there and that you have, bushes there and that you have a bit bird stare and that, so it, it, a vibrant ecosystem never looks like a golf course. And I think these are the discussions that we have currently, to, to find the middle ground, to find the middle ground of a maintained vineyard, sorry, with a maintained vineyard, versus really, really biodiverse flourishing

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: that's what we are, that's what we are working on, that's what we are working on currently and where we have a lot of discussions around it.

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Bobby: Aside from the aesthetic piece that people expect a vineyard to look neat and tidy, and you guys have taken things in a more wild and and complex way. aside from that aesthetic piece, are there any trade-offs or, thing, additional pieces that need to be considered now that you have livestock coming in before bud break, that you've, you no longer have the, the short plants, there underneath the vines, what are the, are are there new challenges that have come about that you've had to learn how to deal with that previously weren't on the table?

Michael: There's, there's constantly challenges, so I mentioned that before. It's a process, it's an evolution. And, I would like to, to. To put a focus on the outcomes when we discuss about that, we are not implementing practices knowing what we are doing, we're, making trials. We measure, and we look what kind of impacts that our trials actually have, on, on our system. So it is not like, we close our eyes and, and we just do, we, we try and, and go from there. that we face, always different. so the first, the first challenge that we had I think was we had a strong focus on soil health and then after Soil health, John Kemp mentioned, on one of his podcasts, Is healthy soil, creating healthy plants or are healthy plants creating healthy soil? that was one of these cheese we are looking, we are looking, we are taking Haney tests and do all the stuff in the soil, but we didn't really look at our plants. So let's have a look at the plants. So we started taking sap, it's like a blood draw, where you have all the breakdowns of nutrient levels and that you can actually see in real time if they, if they run out or, or how good how sufficient that they are. And what we realized, during this test is when we compared soil and plant is that we have nutrients in the soil that we don't have or where we have a lack in the plant. And that's one of the challenges that we face. for example, we have a lot of iron in our soil, but we have a deficiency in our plants.

So I. How do you bridge this gap?

Bobby: How do you.

Michael: I don't know yet. so, these are the challenges. we are learning, we are learning, we are supplementing, the wines during the growing season with foliar applications. So you can, like, like you supplement, yourself, you can supplement the plants, but that's not something that goes back to the root cause.

So quick fix, I know how to do, the long-term fix, I'm still working on. a second challenge that we faced is, we went to a hundred percent ground cover. And, we, we, we, diversified our cover crop to as many species and perennials and plant families, especially plant families, that, that support each other.

so what we didn't, what we didn't, Assume probably because we are naive, is that perennials, especially orchard grass, is growing tremendously high.

Bobby: Hmm.

Michael: and it's just hard to control. So it's a absolutely perfect cheap feat, but we can't have our sheep in there, really, really long into, into our growing season because of bath break. So now we have an orchard grass explosion and we have, we just have to mow and to mow and to mow and to mow and to mow and to mow.

Bobby: This isn't,

Michael: that.

Bobby: I'll say in the regenerative world, this isn't a, or I guess generally speaking, you don't hear folks complaining about, we had too much grass, our grass was too high. so it sounds like a good problem to have, but okay, so you were having to mow it down because you couldn't bring the livestock in to biologically

Michael: no, no.

Bobby: him.

Michael: it, yeah, exactly. And it, it's a, it's a, it's a perspective, right?

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: a sheep perspective and from feeding sheep, crass is the best thing that you can have, right? from, sequestration, point of view, living roots, living deep roots perennials in our, in our ecosystem. It's a really cool thing to have. but in the same time, we are farming a crop, much, at the edge of the West coast. So we are hammered by we streams, meaning also a really, Extremes like snow or frost, late frosts. And if we have really high grass in, in our vineyard, we don't have airflow, we don't have sprinklers, we don't have any other possibility, to, to prevent frost damage. So airflow is our only thing that we have up on the ridge. So we really have to, to mow the shit out of it. That, that please use that, that we have airflow. Yeah.

Bobby: have you changed your cover crop mix then? to move away from the orchard grass?

Michael: you can't, you can't get rid of crass. so if you have it, you have it. so our solution is now that we have sheep. think our next thing is that we bring sheep in way earlier, that they, that they start grazing this orchard grass as early as possible, to weaken the root system. And then hopefully, the other plants are creating enough competition that we can control it,

Bobby: Hmm. So you were saying that you've done SAP analysis to get a sense of what's going on in your grapes and in your vines, and you've done EOV to get a sense of what's happening at the soil surface for the short-term monitoring, and then what's happening in the soil itself for the long-term monitoring.

I guess I'm curious, are there any specific indicators or, or things that you've learned either through the SAP analysis or through the EOV data that has really pointed out to you where things could change or, pointed you in a direction that you otherwise wouldn't have gone? what's the most meaningful indicators that you've seen either through the SAP analysis or EOV.

Michael: I think it's, it's an indication of the whole, it's, it's, I think the step is really interesting on the plant basis that led to the next step to s flow pruning. but, but, and, and the outcome base was, was, was focus on, on, on the ecosystem. And I think. Every data collection that we do are giving us more knowledge, about the whole ecosystem. in the same time, I, I'm aware that, that, everything is changing every year, that creates a complexity where data is really helpful, but it's not, we, we can't read the data and can just say that's, that's the solution. think that tr I think the data is giving us, a trajectory that we are running in the right direction. be because also with, with the last few years that we have, in, in viticulture, we had one year where we had an extreme late pot break at the end of April. We had an extreme cold. season until June. then we switched into heat waves. we had a really late harvest, where we had to go, through rains with our fruit.

Really nerve wracking. It was a, it was a big thriller. And then, the following year we, we had, a normal bot break and then got hammered with heat waves and picked two weeks earlier than in a regular year. So I think it's all about trajectory.

Bobby: Hmm. Now with the increased focus on regenerative practices and soil health, terroir is the name of the game in wine. everyone talks about terroir. the, it's literally the, the land is what it's speaking to. Do you see any changes in the terroir of your wines based on improved soil health and increased complexity of the whole?

Michael: yes,

Bobby: I.

Michael: I see most of the change, because of dry farming practices, which we had, which my, which my parents-in-law, actually implemented. So I am a big believer in that. when you, when you dry farm, you connect your wine with the ground, right? You wanna have deep, deep, deep roots that go deep down, that are. Spreading all over the place, are getting all the nutrients that are connected with the microbiome and with fungi and with everything that lives down there. and when you irrigate the wine, when you ever pulled an irrigated wine, that the roots go down and then are in the top foot and go along, along the dripper. less connected with the ground. so the biggest impact in complexity actually, flavor profiles, and, resilience, was, off the water. definitely.

Bobby: Hmm. I'm realizing that we've, gone into what it is that you guys are doing. But we didn't really set the stage for what is the norm in the wine industry for, for wine growers. Could you give us a sense of what conventional practices look like in wine making? just to frame where you guys are in comparison to the, the status quo.

I know there's a section on the, the dirt wine website that is titled, something along the lines of challenging the status quo. So just want to get a sense of what that, I think the term you used earlier in the interview was hardcore industrial agriculture. What does hardcore industrial agriculture look like in wine?

Michael: the same, pretty much the same how it looks, like in agriculture, industrial agriculture itself. So you have, really tight spacing, of the wines. you cultivate a lot, rid of wheats. you fertilize, to, to get as much out of the wine as possible. You irrigate, to get as much out, out of, of the wines as possible.

And you spray, lot of, of synthetic, synthetic chemicals, to, to control pests and disease. So you can, you can build pretty much, a bridge between viticulture and regular agriculture.

Bobby: How does that translate into the end product that the user is consuming?

Michael: That's a, that's an interesting question, somehow consumers care, or there's a big discussion about the food that you eat, that you put in your body, but there's not a lot of discussion about the wine that you drink. somehow, somehow, a disconnect. You have wine in your glass, but, but it's disconnected that, that it's ac actually an agriculture product. I don't have, I don't have hard data on that. I have strong beliefs on that. I have strong beliefs that, that an agriculture system should be able to survive. without irrigation, for example, especially, especially in viticulture where you could actually set it up like that. So you could choose the right root stock, could choose the right, density. you can do that for most parts in California. and with a perspective of the climate, with the climate extremes that we are facing I'm also, I'm, I'm also thinking that, that the long-term perspective, and to create a system that is climate resilient, that can sustain itself, that can, that can deal with heat waves, that, that can heal, wave, that can deal with, with droughts, is, is something that, that is essential.

Bobby: Is that something that you see in other vineyards with the increased rate of climate extremes that we're seeing, that that is affecting, crop yields, or quality of grapes or, or things of that nature?

Michael: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it, it will tremendously, heat, well, heat waves will, will change, flavor profiles of grapes tremendously. so I think there's, there's a, an awareness of that in the wine industry. And, I think there's, quite some movement, for example, to try to, to try ground cover, in vineyards. I think there's a realization that, when it's out outside over a hundred degrees, and the ground, is, is also a hundred degrees, that, that, that's not, that, that's not really beneficial for the whole system. so yeah, I think. I think there's an awareness. there's a lot of trials with new grapes, varieties that are do better in, in, in hot climates.

There's, there's a lot of trials with trail assist, with trella systems that create umbrellas and stuff. the majority is still farming in a way, that is focused on crop loads

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: and mass, not quality.

Bobby: I think I saw on your website a, an article where it was mentioned that in sustainable cer some sustainable certifications and, and no names were named. but there are 70 plus additives that are allowed in wine and they don't have to appear on the label. can you speak to that a little bit?

Michael: yes. That's general in wine making, in, in wine making, 70 additives are allowed, by law. sulfur is, is one of them. yeast is another one of 'em. And then, we go farther. We have, products out of fish platter egg whites to, to find the wine. And then, we have, products like it's a sterilizer that is, lethal, when you put it in the wine. transforms in the wine, but, there's. There's really bad stuff that, that you can actually use in the wine industry. And the wine industry is not required to declare anything on the bottles sulfates. and I, strongly believe, you deserve to know what you drink.

I strongly believe, that as a wine industry that is really tackling some, some headwinds at, at, at the moment with, lack of engagement with one, with younger consumers. And that we actually should look in the mirror and actually ask ourselves with, with what generation are we dealing with.

it's a generation that is turning around labels. It's a, it's a, a generation that requires, or that wants transparency. It's not, it's not an, something that, that you provide as an added value. It, requirement. You know what I mean?

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: and, and I believe there's, there's quite, quite a need for transparency in the wine

Bobby: Yeah.

Michael: Additives, additives are one thing. another thing is chemical residues in wine. another thing is, sustainable certifications that still allow the use of glyphosate, for example, and, and other synthetic, chemicals, and so on and so on and so on, and so on and so on.

Bobby: Mm. And so with this radical transparency that you're getting at, my understanding is that's a, a key tenant of your latest venture. I know we've talked about Mariah Vineyards, where Nicole has grown up, but then dirt wine is the latest venture that you guys have launched a, a new brand of wine.

And I know transparency is one of the, the key tenets of that. So why don't you tell us a little bit about dirt wine?

Michael: we, we wanna inspire, a future of wine that is, that is clean and that is radically transparent and that is nature positive, a future of wine where this generation that we spoke previously, can actually align their values with, with the products that they drink. and, and, A wine that, that fulfills the requirements.

When I speak about clean, that sounds really, that sounds really idealistic. it's, it's a wine, that is tested for 572, chemical residues. it's a wine that is farmed without the use of synthetics chemicals, fungicides. it is, it is a wine that is verified by, by land to market, based on regenerative outcomes, and, and not just, empty claims. it's a wine that works closely with family, with family farms, with, with the California lines of family farms. it's a wine that is dry farmed. That actually, that actually, tries to show that there's a path possible next to the industrial system that we have

Bobby: So you mentioned other family farms, so are the grapes going into dirt wine? Are these being sourced from beyond Mariah Vineyards?

Michael: not yet.

Bobby: Not yet. But plans to expand.

Michael: we, we purchased the fruit from, from our parents. So we farm and we purchase the fruit from, from Mariah Vineyards. it, when you speak about radical transparency and the step that, that, that we are doing with dirt wine and to go out and to speak about the, the in transparencies out there, I think it's, it's important that you know what you're talking about. And I'm only doing that because I farmed this place now for seven years. so I can, I can. you what we did up there, in the soil, with the wines to the crop, and then through the cellar and then to the glass. so it's a wine. It's a wine that, and I'm proud of, and, and that can be challenged,

Bobby: I had a quote that I wrote down, and I don't know if you said it or if Nicole said it, but the quote was, it's ironic that an industry that speaks so highly about terroir somehow hasn't really focused on the dirt. And that I, I think, speaks volumes. And so I'm wondering, this new dirt wine brand, are you using this as a way to educate consumers on the connection between plant health, soil health, human health, and the essence of terroir and everything that's involved?

Is that part of what you're going for here?

Michael: Yes, ab absolutely. we believe, we believe that the wine is, interesting product, actually, to, to push, for, for better agriculture systems. is a product, that has quite a spectrum. You can buy it in a box, but you can also buy, 1,500 bottle, a dollar bottle, from a winery.

So there's a tremendous spectrum. there's the, a tremendous communication platform, with sommeliers, master sommeliers, podcasts, and, Everybody has an opinion, about wine. so I think we are in a, in a really interesting position to, to bring up these topics and to see if we can bring some transformation in California or beyond.

Yes.

Bobby: Hmm. Do you see the wine industry, either from a grower's perspective or from the consumer perspective, is there. I guess you've been land market verified since 2021, so you guys were the first ones to be land market verified since then. Others, around the world have come on the scene and there is a host of new regenerative certifications that have all, jumped onto the stage as well.

And so I'm wondering has the industry shifted at, at all? And is there an increased willingness to, to go in the regenerative direction, either from the the producer side or the consumer side in terms of consumer demand?

Michael: And there's a tremendous passion regenerative viticulture out there. so there's several vineyards that are going in this path. they were always biodynamic vineyards, that, were working in a similar path.

So I think there's really good vineyards and wines out there that are really trying to push the needle and, and showcase what's possible out, out there, with all this positivity. and, and with all. This transformation. There's, there's also the, the greenwashing, down the line. And I think, we are pretty far in that, in viti culture. I think, how do you say that, English, the bird in the coal mine

Bobby: Oh, the canary in the coal mine.

Michael: the culinary and the coal mine? I think multiculture is at this point, I, I see a lot of posts about, we are regenerative and then you have glyphosate, glyphosate, spray wine rose in the back. and, and, I think it's a disservice that, that the word regenerative was, was never, was, never defined properly. I know that there's, that there's, efforts going on currently in California. I, I know, that it's, wide open. Definition of the word. and, are pretty much there where, where the, the word regenerative, is going in a direction, like the word sustainable.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: nice word, but it's quite a spectrum what sustainable means.

Bobby: Yeah.

Michael: from good execution to, yeah,

Bobby: Well, and you were saying that there isn't a good definition of regenerative agriculture out there, and there are a lot of folks that are trying to define regenerative agriculture, but when they do, they're defining it as a set of practices. regenerative agriculture means cover crops no-till, biochar compost application, what have you.

It's a focus on actions rather than a focus on outcomes. And that, I think is where I. A lot of the greenwashing and trouble comes in because someone then who is say, doing no-till, on a cropping operation or they're doing rotational grazing, whether it's done well or done poorly and everyone's raising their hand and saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm regenerative.

See this practice I'm doing, but. Practices don't necessarily equate to outcomes. And regenerative by definition means creating more life, like getting better over time. The living system developing more complexity and more life because of the management that, that it experienced. And That shift from practices to outcomes, I think is a really important one.

And whether you encapsulate that in a definition of regenerative agriculture or not, you'll notice ecological outcome verification. EOV, land to market verified, the word regenerative isn't used in any of those. and that was by design at the outset of these programs because we saw the writing on the wall that regenerative was starting to pick up momentum.

And folks, corporate interests, all the, the usual players were gonna come in and try to plant their flag and get some of this, this new exciting trend that they see, without actually doing the legwork or, fully jumping in with both feet. I guess that's a cautionary tale on definitions, because if you define something in a very certain way, you can define it, you can define it in a certain way so as to game the system IE greenwash.

but if you zoom out and say, all right, what are we really trying to go for? We're trying to increase the complexity and improve ecosystem function. So like, let's look at the outcomes and how did you get there? It doesn't matter. let's be practice agnostic and say whatever way that you can come in and improve the outcomes on your land base, whether it's, a vineyard, an orchard, a pasture, what have you.

That's ultimately I think, what we all are, are striving for.

Michael: Yes. And it's, and it's about context, right?

Bobby: mm-hmm.

Michael: I think that's a, that's a different layer. where I farm, I, I have over 80 inches of rain, right? The practices that I use. Or in my context. So that doesn't mean that, a vineyard in PAA Robles, can do exactly the same what I do. So just because it's the right practice.

So I think it's really site specific and it's, it's extremely context, context

Bobby: Yeah. And when you're focused on outcomes, it allows the land manager to make decisions in context rather than saying, no, no, no, no, I have to follow these guidelines, which, which say I have to do A, B, and C, and I'm not allowed to do X, Y, and Z. That, boxes people in and, really limits the, the creativity that they can apply in their land management.

I'm sure what you guys are doing at 2,400 feet in a dry farmed, vineyard is going to be very different from someone who is more, at sea level and, has a different type of soil and different variety of grapes that they're growing. I'm sure all of those factors come into play.

you were mentioning something about, the, the additives and everything that are allowed in wines, and I guess what I'm curious about is what would you advise the consumer, who is wanting to source the best possible wine? Of course, go and buy dirt wine, go and buy Mariah Vineyards. That's, that'll be recommendation number one.

But say they're not able to purchase your product, what sort of things should they be looking for, or what sort of things, what sort of questions should they be asking? from the wine grower or at their local wine shop? what can they be doing to ensure that they are buying the, the highest quality product as possible for the land and for themselves?

I.

Michael: just in general demand more just in, just in general, as you mentioned, ask questions. ask, ask questions. Which additives, were used, or did you, did you farm with chemicals? how, how is your operation working? You do it, you do it in food. You deeply care. You deeply care. You go so far that you know your farmer. I think it would be wise to know your farmer as well, and as your winery, and if you don't have the capability of doing that, of, of asking questions, of digging deep. and then buy organic wines, organically, because, they're working, they're working in a, in a, in a positive, positive direction. for me, for, for me personally, it's, it's always, important. Chemical residues are, are a topic that, that are deeply that, that, that, that I deeply care about it. So for me, it was always, organic, or how to figure out, or ROC or biodynamic or just to, to choose a wine from a system. from a system that is not, using chemical, chemical syn, chemical, sprays.

Bobby: Yeah. Okay. So a lot of good. So there are good reputable certifications beyond land to market verified obviously, that folks can be looking for.

Michael: I just didn't mention Land to Market because we are not really widespread,

Bobby: Yeah. Yeah.

We're getting there.

Michael: a, so it's in, in wine, so, there's a Land to Market is really widespread in, in the ranging,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: in grasslands, but not so far in viticulture.

Bobby: Yeah.

Michael: So I'm eager to change that.

Bobby: Yeah,

Michael: uh,

Bobby: been the, the big one in, viticulture, right? In terms of Demeter certified. That's how you know if something is biodynamic. I know that's what, prior to, you guys coming out with land to market verified wine. That's what I would always, look for. But it seems like there are some reputable, pieces to look for.

okay, so that's on the consumer side, like what you would recommend to consumers. What about for other wine growers? what would you recommend to them? If someone say, is listening and they are interested in shifting their management in moving things in a more regenerative path, where would you recommend folks start or what advice would you give to them?

Michael: everything starts with a conversation. I am, I'm really intrigued. I'm really intrigued. the wine industry is, it's a really, really cool industry. really, really personable, good people. And, my 5, 6, 7 year journey, field, I never had a situation where somebody didn't answer my phone.

in the beginning how we started was with, was with, was with, baseline. that's 0.1. Get measurement and see where you are. So that's definitely the first step, because then, your soils and, which cover crops to plant and, about cheap integration and, and, all of that stuff.

So the baseline is definitely the first step. And then the second step is reach out to your buddies or to people that do cool stuff that you know, a conversation. we had, we were really blessed that we had the possibility to discuss constantly with Paul Dolan, about that. we reached out to Kelly Ville.

We had chats with Kelly Ville. we visited several vineyards, that were doing good work. then, we went back, looked at our results, and started, started trials. I

Bobby: Hmm.

Michael: small trials, a few rows, what happens, and then if it's good, then change the whole operation.

Bobby: Were there any trials that you guys did that failed? Anything that you tried that you thought would be successful that wasn't

Michael: Several, Several, And, uh,

no, not, not, not every, not every, not not favorites, but, but I, I believe that action creates information.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: if it's a favor, even, even if it's a failure, you get information out of it. And it was always a stepping stone for the next. So for example, in, currently we doing under wine trials with low growing, flowers, attract beneficials.

So I mentioned before that we have really, really high orchard grass. So we are looking if we can, Replace this orchard grass underneath the wines with low growing flowers that creates beneficials, and that we have beneficial, insects in our vineyards and have, natural, natural supporters that we don't have to spray as much.

Right? that's a trial at the moment. So we are far from, from figuring out, which species is good, what does work, and then how do we bring that to scale? but it's always, just an experience in the learning curve. So we figured out now a few flowers, and then it's the next step, and then it's the next season.

And then in the end we have pollinator habitats underneath our wine rose.

Bobby: Are there any other things emerging in the regenerative viticulture space? You mentioned, at ous them working on higher trellis that allow for 365 days a year of grazing. I'm wondering if there's any other innovative approaches that folks are piloting or, or new technologies that you've seen.

Anything that, sparks your curiosity that you're interested to learn more about.

Michael: there's a lot going on. one of the topics is bottle weight. the biggest carbon footprint, that you have in the winery is your bottles, actually. So it's not the farming side, it's actually the bottles. And we have bottles in the wine industry that are 500 grams or more, right? there's a shift to alternative packaging.

path that we choose with dirt wine is a bottle that is around 390 grams. it's still capable to ship in boxes, with break and all the stuff are not an issue. And, and, and a tremendous step forward actually could be implemented from way more. but it's, it's a process. another innovation that is going on is, ground cover is a topic, the realization that heavy tillage, is not a solution, for climate extremes. big discussion currently, if you can do that in dry farm systems or not sitting on advisory board, where we have these discussions where we actually take soil trenches, seven feet down, to see where the roots are and we measure water, moisture content. So absolutely fascinating. So a really push that is going on there and the big investment, to, to figure out how we can. farmers to, to irrigate less with the current systems and how to plant future systems, that are less reliant on, on water. That's, really cool. crimping is, is something that, that, a lot of vineyards are trying in the moment where you don't mow your cover crop, where you actually crimp, you lay down the cover crop. and several other things. the transparency piece is, is the innovation, if you can call it innovation, that I would wish, that we would work a bit more, because I recognize that there's a lot of cool vineyards that are doing, lot of really, really cool stuff. and it would really. It would be a service for consumers to actually know which ones are the ones that are pushing the needles and actually, show which ones are doing not.

So

Bobby: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I guess I'm wondering as we start to, to wrap up here, now that you have, for a number of years, you and Nicole have farmed at the vineyards. She grew up at Mariah Vineyards, and now you have launched your own line of wine through dirt wine with transparency. I'm wondering what's next?

what's coming down the pipe? What do you see, next either for Mariah or dirt wine or beyond?

Michael: There's two things. There's the farming side. the farming side is a rabbit hole. I, I, I recognize that I will never achieve perfection, never. And that's part of the beauty of, of, of farming. So we, we continue on our trajectory. We increase complexity. we, support our ecosystem. and we see on an annual basis how more comes to life and how more biodiversity that we have and, how the system can, can, can deal with heat waves and, and climate extremes.

Absolutely stunning. So there's a lot, there that we can do. So currently, the pollinator habitat where we try to break up the mono cropp, with hedge rows on one side, and then the trials underneath the wine rows, that we can, that we can, Plant pollinator habitats in the mono cropp. So there was an interesting study from Miguel Al, he was a professor at, Berkeley. and he showed that beneficial, that beneficial insects can jump about 20 meters into, into, agriculture system from flowering plant to flowering plant. So it is our goal to create flowering plants every 20 meters. And that's quite the journey, I can tell you that. I'm really, really, really excited about that. And then the, the long term vision is, density. I would love, I would love to, to track flavor profiles of, Mariah Vineyards compared to. Viticulture in California itself.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: I reached out to several people. I know that it's possible, but I also know that it costs, that the costs, extend my budget, let's say like that.

Bobby: Yeah.

Michael: but I believe that if we could show, that generate viticulture has, impact on flavor outcomes, flavor profiles, and that dry farming has, a tremendous impact on the flavor profiles, on an expression of terroir in the grape, and then through the fermentation process into the wine, I believe that could be stunning.

So

Bobby: Someone you should, perhaps reach out to. There is, Dr. Stephan Von Vite. I don't know if you've, followed his work at all. he's done a lot of incredible research lately. I actually wanna get him on the podcast to talk about this, but he has looked at the, and here's where I might get the language wrong, so apologies if I do.

But, he's doing an analysis beyond macronutrients and micronutrients that you would find in, he, he's largely looking at beef and dairy, animal products. but he's looking at secondary metabolites, I believe, which number in the, the thousands, if not millions. And so he's getting a. Very deep look at the nitty gritty differences of how, one piece of meat would compare to another.

And looking at the difference between say, grain fed and grass fed and the nutritional profile, not just at that micro and macronutrient level, but at a much more granular level. really interesting stuff. And he's doing this in conjunction with, the Bionutrient Food Association, their, their beef study that's going on now, but I would bet that either Dr.

Von V's work or Bionutrient Food Association or

Michael: out,

Bobby: a day shift

Michael: to the

Bobby: mm-hmm.

Michael: and Audacious and, and stuff. So, I'm, I'm, I'm following. I'm, I'm following

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: but I, it's, you can say it's ridiculous to, to think about that in wine, right? It's, it's not a, it's not a product that you eat and, and stuff, but because we are in a position with, with this communication platform and because we really care about terroir and have a language around that, think it would be extremely interesting and the shift in conversation when we would speak, for example, in the dry farming space, not from, you can reduce irrigation, you can do blah, blah, Lesser impact and stuff. If we could change this conversation and could say, look, that's the outcome on your fruit, in the world of wine, if you can prove, or if

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: the impact on the fruit quality and on the wine quality, I think that would be an absolutely game changer.

Bobby: Yeah, because terroir at this point is, is purely subjective. It's, you're trusting what a sommelier says. at least I am, I, I don't have as refined a palate to, to. To be able to, to put words to what I'm experiencing in my mouth. but if you could put data behind terroir, I think that opens up a whole world of possibility.

That would be fascinating.

Michael: but also on the side of, of farming,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: I, I believe that if you can show that dry farming creates way more expressive fruit, it's a no brainer how you plant the vineyards of the future, The ter, the terroir, the terroir expression. That's a, that's a, that's a really hot topic actually.

it's, it's, it's a hot topic. some say it's a myth. some say no. a fact is that, that there's, so that can pop, a bottle in blind tasting, and can tell you the variety, can tell you where it's coming from, can tell you, the producer can tell you the vintage. So, it's absolutely crazy. So I am, I'm a, I'm a big, big fan

Bobby: Yeah.

Michael: Why we are not doing it in, in, in other agriculture, agriculture systems. I don't know, because, I think you could do that with similar, with similar impact,

Bobby: imagine a comparison of the, the terroir of meat. here, here's beef that is grown, on Savory's bison ranch, on, on the short grass prairie. And then, here is, meat that comes from, a more coastal, humid, non brittle area. And then here's one. Yeah, I, I think that would be fascinating.

And, again, I don't have the refined palate to be able to tell the differences of those things, but I'm sure some folks are. they're super tasters, right? People whose taste buds literally can do more than what the average human.

Michael: do more and that memorize and that are memorizing a tremendous amount of wines and that can open the file and can recognize it. And it's, it's absolutely fascinating. so that's the future. That's the future that I see, in farming. So I will never be bored. it will be, it will be constantly evolving.

It will be constantly making mistakes. It will be constantly having some kind of successes, but the trajectory is definitely a more resilient, flourishing ecosystem. And then on the third side, I think, I'm really committed to transparency. I am struggling currently to find the right tone. How to create, how to create transparency in an industry that you love without, without,

Bobby: Offending it.

Michael: defending it.

Yes. so, that's currently a, a learning curve that I, that I'm half and that, that we are figuring out. But as more as you communicate and the feedbacks that we are coming back, the more we are learning and adopting, and then, definitely to, to inspire. To inspire a future of wine, that is chemical residue free. that is nature positive. also not speaking of regenerative, of nature positive based on outcomes. and that is so transparent that, that consumers can, can really align their values.

Bobby: Yeah.

Michael: and cut through all the bullshit that is out there.

Bobby: Yeah. Well, here's to that. I, I wish you the, the best of luck on the journey. And so I guess to close, where can folks buy your wine? And if they are not able to buy your wine, where can they at least follow your work?

Michael: they can connect with me on dirt wine.com. that's our website. Where they, can read about what we are doing, where they can purchase wine. we are active on social medias. I'm happy, I'm happy for everybody that is jumping on. it'll take a village. It'll take a village, to create transparency.

It's, it's not a, it's not a, a single attempt. It's a, a shared, it's a shared effort. so I'm happy for everybody that jumps on, and that provides me, with a following and, real time insights, what we can do better.

Bobby: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, Michael, I really appreciate you sitting down to chat today and everything that you guys are doing. you and Nicole, it's been wonderful to have you guys as partners over the last couple years and really incredible to follow along your work. And of course, thank you for creating such, delicious, incredible product that we can enjoy and commune with.

So thanks for everything.

Michael: thank you very much for having me. and, always happy, to push, land to market, in Viti culture and to support you guys. I'm deeply committed to outcomes.

Bobby: Cheers, friend.

Michael: Cheers. Bye.

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