Growing the World’s Best Wool

Bobby: Welcome to Ruminations. I'm your host, Bobby Gill. In today's episode, we're heading to the rolling hills of Somerset, England to a place where sheep graze in tight-knit flocks. Wool is measured in microns, and regeneration is more than a philosophy. It is a way of life. We're talking about Fernhill Farm.

We get into how holistic management transformed their approach to grazing and land stewardship, what it takes to breed sheep that thrive on rough terrain and produce premium wool, and how two people can turn a hilltop farm into a cultural and ecological hub. I. Complete with shearing competitions, festivals, innovative new sheep breeds, and a whole lot more.

Our guests today to discuss all of this are none other than Jen Hunter and Andy Weir Shepherds Entrepreneurs, educators, and as recognized by Farmers Weekly, the 2022 Sheep Farmers of the Year. Andy manages the sheep in the land. While Jen manages the wool and runs the farm shop together, they've created a truly holistic enterprise that's as much about community and creativity as it is about sheep from breeding crosses between six distinct wool breeds to partnering with luxury clothing brands.

They've built a model of what's possible when you weave together ecology, economy, and artistry. So with that, let's now dive into today's conversation with Jen Hunter and Andy Wear of Fernhill Farm and Fernhill Fiber. 

Well, hello Jen and Andy. Welcome to the Ruminations podcast.

Fernhill: Hello. Hi there.

Bobby: You guys have, uh, it sounds like you've had a, a fairly busy morning and maybe even a, a busy couple of weeks here. You're just coming off of a, a big event, I hear.

Fernhill: Yeah, we hosted Fiber Experience, which is a farm open day, which comes kind of at the end of shearing 1200, uh, inland es, where we gather lots of, uh, what we call our wool harvesting team from mostly all over Europe, but kind of global. so we sort of look after about 50 people for a week and we all get the wool off properly, grade it, sort it, and then invite the public to come and see how it should or could be done.

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: quite busy.

Bobby: Yeah. What does the attendance look like for that? You said about 50 folks that are involved in the actual shearing, but then the, the public is attend. How, how big is this event?

Fernhill: Well, we didn't count the cars, but we think there might have been 300 cars throughout the day. And so yeah, somewhere sort of upwards of 500 people come sort of throughout the day. There's a series of farm walks and talks, discussions, films. There's a few traders also selling natural fiber products.

There's demonstrations you can even learn to share a sheep and learn how to be a sort of wool handler. So there's lots of things to do to entertain you, and obviously we like to feed people with good quality farm foods as well. So yeah, it's a proper day out on the farm.

Bobby: My god, that is a, um, that's the scale of an event that you don't normally see at farms. You know, normally you hear, oh, we're having a farm day, and yeah, we had. 30 people come out. It was a massive success. Uh, you're talking about an entirely different scale here. Um, where did, where did this event come from?

Where, how did you come up with it?

Fernhill: Uh, we, it is been growing for quite a few years. The actual, uh, fiber experience, we started off with a blade shearing tournament. Um, and that built from just a requirement to sheer sheep and to try and market the wool a lot better. So we thought a bit of public awareness, uh, kind of like a gathering of the Klan of blade shearers and wool harvesters. Um, had a, an eclectic mix of shearers who I've met over the years, and there's no real numbers of sheep to be shor on a farm with blades. The old additional star hhi. Um,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: so we thought, well, we've got 1200. I didn't want to be selfish and share them all myself. So we thought we'd share the, uh, fun occasion. Um, and we're probably, we're probably one of the bigger events the Northern Hemisphere for Glacier.

Bobby: Wow. Incredible. So, uh, I'm gonna summarize the answer to where did this event come from is, well, I, I was gonna say laziness, but maybe efficiency is the term of, of being able to get all of these 1200 sheep blade sheared. Uh, that seems, uh, certainly like a benefit. What about, uh, for attendees, what are attendees getting out of this?

Like what kind of folks, uh, from the public come out to.

Fernhill: All sorts of people, families, those who have heard about us but never actually came, come down the farm drive. Um, lot of local people. Also people travel out from Bristol, our nearest town about 20 miles away, just per day out in the countryside. Um, and then people further who, know about us or other people who are attending the day giving talks or selling product and they want have a catch up with them.

Bobby: Wow. Sounds like, uh, quite the event and one that I will say I will try to get to next year. So I will put it on my calendar and see if you can hold me to that.

Fernhill: Okay? So it is

Bobby: Is

Fernhill: year anniversary next year,

Bobby: it really.

Fernhill: it is, and it is the 21st of March, 2026, which is the spring equinox here. So lots of good reasons to come.

Bobby: Amazing. Okay. Well, what we'll do is for our listeners and viewers, we'll put a link to the event in our show notes. And I'm guessing you don't have registration for whatever is, you know, all the details for next year's event out on the website yet. But we'll put whatever you have into the show notes so folks can go, um, and make sure that they get it on their calendars because, uh, you know, 10 years, I mean, the scale of this event is already pretty massive.

Do you have anything in store for the 10 year anniversary, something special?

Fernhill: Uh, we're just currently getting over what we've just done in the last days we, we do get partial funding because we are in a area of outstanding natural beauty reformed as natural landscape. So we, we do try and seek a bit of funding, which covers the specialist speakers that come here. this kind of coming to an end that's over here in England.

So we're trying to reformat how we can continue to grow this event. Based on, we want it to be accessible to everybody. So we don't charge any entrance fees. Um, the only money that exchanges hand is if you're paying someone for sort of specialist tuition if you're buying some quality farm, you know, lunch or afternoon tea or something.

So yeah, we wanna keep it really sort of, um, free to everyone, you know, that's our goal, so we gotta work on that yet.

Bobby: Wow, that it, I didn't realize it was a free event. That just, I think, elevates it in terms of. Uh, what it is that you're putting out there. That's incredible. Um, well, I know we jumped right into, you know, what you guys just went through over the past week. Um, but why don't we rewind a little bit and, and set the stage for folks and give an introduction to Fern Hill Farm.

Um, you know, you guys actually are the first guests that I've interviewed here on ruminations that I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting before. So this is our first time meeting. Uh, so this conversation is just as much for me as it is for the listeners in terms of, uh, meeting you guys and learning about everything that you have going on.

So tell us about Fern Hill Farm. Where are you guys located? Give us a history of the land, paint us the picture of everything that's going on.

Fernhill: Uh, Fern Hill Farm. We're in Somerset, which is the southwest of England. a latitude similar to London, so I think we're just above the equivalent of Boston in the USA.

Bobby: Okay.

Fernhill: But we don't get extreme weather like you guys do. I don't think. we may get a little bit of snow. it may have a few frosty days through the winter. to maybe 30 degrees in the summer. Um, quite temperate. We're highly influenced by the, the weather you send over here. Generally a fortnight letter later. It's a little bit milder where we live. Um, we're 800 foot up on the top of a plateau, so we can't really see any views. We're just on the top of the hill, a lot of sky. Uh, on limestone, which is, um, a clay low, and we are all a grassland farm. Um, we love it. We're 20 miles outta town, but we have our own little bit of remoteness. Uh, we graze cattle and sheep, and we've got a few pigs, and that's all kind of evolved over time. I moved here 27 years ago. Prior to that, I was a contract shepherd, bit of a nomadic shepherd, renting land wherever I could. shearing sheep, lambing sheep, working with them. But not only in the UK traveling Australia, New ZeAlland, lots of countries in Europe the way around the uk up into Scotland and in Wales, um, from a farming background. So it's in the, it's kind of like in here.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: I've got wool on the brain the genetics. Parents were farming, grandparents were farming. But I've kind of gone out, um, due to necessity. We only had a very small family farm where I was brought up, um, what Wisewood from my dad when I was younger, when I finished college, I said, so what are we going to do? He said, what are you going to do? Um, and that set me on my way.

Just get on and do something that you want to do. Um, that was sheep shearing. Did about 15 years, shearing all over the place, money. Learning how other people farm and learning that there is not one correct way. You've gotta work with the nature that is around you, your soil type, your climate, your local population. So it is a very good education. unfortunately for myself, I met up with Jen 20 years ago at Fern Hill Farm. Um, and it really put like reason a policy together, um, to really push on. I'll pass you over to Jen now. She's got her side of the story.

Bobby: Yeah, let's hear it. I'd love to.

Fernhill: Thank you, Andy. So, yeah, I'm also a farmer's daughter. Um, kind of half Lancashire, half Yorkshire. So if anyone knows anything about the War of the Roses, I'm a pink rose. So I had an interesting sort of background growing up on the borders in the north of England. So. I'm an imposter down here in the south of England, but, you know, I'm not sure I'd be welcome back up north either now.

So, but all farmers, I grew up, you know, on a dairy farm we had beef and sheep. We grew our own vegetables. We kind of, you know, had our own poultry, our own goats, so subsistence and the ability to use all your natural resources on the farm was just embedded in my everyday. Let's work every hour that the sun's up type mentality. Um, I have a degree in animal science. I studied animal behavior. It's something that is really crucial to me, which, um, sort of determines the health and welfare and I've kind of always run with that as my, my mantra, if you like.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: I, I've written best practice guides for outdoor pig production. I ended up in Uganda as a VSO, which is voluntary service overseas. I was based in Uganda as a livestock advisor and kind of felt quite happy in Africa, in my little mud hook.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: need, you know, too many sort of shiny things in my life. Um, sort of came back to the uk, looked at, uh, organic certification and I'm not meant to sit still in an office, I'm, I'm sort of built for stronger, sort of more endurance if you like, and was getting into teaching and education.

So I could return to Africa to do more of what I'd sort of set my goals on. And I needed a sheep shearing machine and here's, my machine then our tractor. So yeah, we kind of bumped into each other by accident and realized that we actually come from a very similar background of livestock on land living, you know, really, really natural lives.

They have all the ability to live in. You know, their surrounding environments, we just need to put it in front of them rather than bringing them in and, you know, changing what the landscape looks like on the outside to put the animals inside. And there was very few people who actually thought the same as us.

Two. And so, you know, we were little odd bods together, which is fine. Um, fast forward to, uh, Fern Hill. And what Andy didn't tell you is, is that it's a really, really old farmstead, if you like. The buildings that are here are sort of great to listed state from around 1770,

Bobby: Wow.

Fernhill: of evidence. Well, let's just say Cheddar Caves is five miles away and that's the oldest skeleton in England.

So people have been coming out the caves to exactly where we are, to, you know, to live quite similar lives, to hopefully what we're still doing. So there's a lot of history here and.

Bobby: Wow.

Fernhill: You know, we, we see ourselves as kind of custodians of this landscape, that means we let like livestock do the, the maintenance, you know, keep the carbon cycle, you know, flowing naturally.

So, um, so yeah, we, we, we kind of needed humans in our existence to pay for the renovation of all the buildings. And I used to joke, I dunno how you marry a shepherd and become a wedding planner, because we ended up hosting many, many wedding weddings here. And it sort of broke me a little bit the expectations of being a farmer, a mom, you know, a, a wedding planner and turning a sort of redundant, fairly old, you know, farmstead into a wedding venue, which wasn't up to everyone's expectations.

And so I was like, okay, I need to change the face of the person that comes down the drive. In that we wanted people that were more sort of wholesome, holistic, and at that time, Andy was really getting into blade shearing and I wanted to try and sell product to all our visitors. And there was nobody to help me add value toward.

It was, you know, 20 years ago, wool was the forgotten fiber. There was nobody really to help. that's where I looked upon, uh, Nuffield farming to, um, to ask for help and they gave me a scholarship. So I was very fortunate that that's how I came across holistic management. yeah.

Bobby: Wow. Um. Okay, I wanna get into the, the Nuffield Farm Scholarship, uh, for wool and how you guys got into holistic management and also some pieces of Africa. Um, but I wanna make sure we don't lose it. Uh, so 27 years ago, Andy, you came to the farm after living a more nomadic shepherd lifestyle. What was the management on that land before you got there?

What, how was that land tended prior to you taking over?

Fernhill: I would say its history has been very changeable or exploitative. Um, to the point we can take it back 2000 years in that there was open, uh, cast mining going on right on this farm. Lead mining silver

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: and uh, ancient CELs were dealing with the Romans. Um, ad 56 there was a Roman garrison up on the men, further exploitation of the lead. So the landscape was fairly, uh, turned over. Then there was a lot of tree planting that carried out through the early parts the kind of last millennia.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: then we get to land enclosures, acts of about 15 hundreds and the 17 hundreds. And it was big open, common land, all grazed by sheep. Uh, the monks of wit. ran about a hundred thousand sheep over the mendix down through the valleys down south of Bath and, Glastonbury. And then when we got here, the early fifties, the land was farm by a family, who lost their father. There were six children, so it was again, just set stocked. very little inputs. When we got here, there was GOs rag brack. Stinging natural thistle, no gates, no water troughs, eroded. Um, house was falling down, buildings falling down. And I thought, perfect. I can't make it any worse. And at the time, obviously any young person getting into farming, there's a huge capital requirement and investment. Um, and any farm that were would've been in better condition, I just wouldn't have been able to afford to move onto it. So the plan was to fence it to get water toward the paddocks. Um, and to assist with that. As Jen mentioned, we've always invited public onto the farm. Within about three years, we held, held an event on the farm that had 20,000 people come to it. And

Bobby: Whoa.

Fernhill: opened to my eyes up to the diversity of people, their passions. Their, um, genuineness that they want to get in touch with reality. Um, it was, I guess, a bit hedonistic in that were all living a dream,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: but a lot of those people nowadays, 25 years on, are into big business wind turbines, our inventors of new kind of efficient systems. Um, it was where I first heard about, uh, permaculture and effectiveness of grazing and plants and herbal medicine, and it was a real eyeopener. Um, had to carry on shepherding and making a living. a lot of the grazing we took was out on other farms and we were running about 6,000 sheep then, um. It was kind of noted by myself and other farmers that when we were grazing it was all electric fence on other people's farms just so we had a control of the stock. we would move field by field round their maybe two, maybe 400 sheep on each farm. And they would have to stay in for like 2, 3, 4 days because of the size of the fields. And the end of the winter, the farmer would regularly come out and say, or different farmers would say, you grazed those fields?

And I said, yeah, I grazed them back in October, November time. there's more grass there. And when we started the winter and it just set a little ball rolling in my head going, if we graze like this all the time, my stock are happy 'cause they're always on green feed. The farmer's happy 'cause he's got green feed left when I leave the farm and everything is neat and tidy and we move into spring back on our home pastures. And we carry on that, uh, rotational grazing. When I had, when the system breakdown, I had to go set stocking, I kind of, you can notice the deterioration in the wellbeing of the animal, but you don't really quickly add two and two together. But then we had to worm more, we had more disease issues. so since then we've tried to use Fern Hill as our key farmer practice, uh, mob grazing, um, and the stock are happy, reducing the amount of hours, sat on a tractor. I'm happy. Don't like tractor driving, like wandering amongst the seat with my dogs. And it was the, the conclusion when we did holistic management training, we visited some other regen places, we just thought, well, that's what we're doing. Um, so we've kind of practiced a lot of pr, good principle farming for many years. Um, and it's quite rewarding now that a name for it. had framing for it and it's really opened our eyes and given us courage to move forward even more. So a lot of things we've done over the course of the, can be explained by holistic management, by regenerative approach, and yeah, it makes you braver to have, um, more impact on other land. Other landlords be a little bit more pushy when you're driving a deal and trying to get some long term agreements with other farmers.

Bobby: It is interesting that you're saying that when you discovered holistic management, you know, when you went through the, uh, official training with, uh, 3LM I think you, you took training with Right? The, the savory hub in the uk. This was, that was back in 2017. Is that right? Okay. So back then, you know, when you were being, you know, you were going through holistic management for the first time and you're like, oh, this is kind of what we're doing already, but it's giving a name to it and maybe providing a little more structure around it versus, uh, things that you were doing intuitively.

Um, would that be accurate to say, and I guess I'm wondering where that intuitive approach to your land management came from. And I'm wondering if all those years as a shepherd. Because there's folks that come to holistic management from a very conventional agricultural background, um, where it's just set stock, uh, that is all that they know, that's all that they've ever done.

But you were fairly nomadic. You were on the land with the sheep, you know, spending time, reading the land, reading the, the health of the animals, uh, you know, having that more intimate relationship with place and, and with the animals. Do you think that's why holistic management came easily to you?

Fernhill: Uh, definitely, yeah. was a, a government supported scheme in the UK back in the eighties, late eighties, nineties, um, called set aside because there was a grain mountain and overproduction because of EU, subsidies. Basically he encouraged farmers to go the wrong way, too intensively. Um, there was land set aside generally after cropping, generally on second rate land. Um, the farmer would get half the rate, but he could graze it with livestock. So I picked up a lot of grazing in that format, and again, because I had a limited amount of electric fencing. I would just mob graze around the farm, um, hoping not to return within 30 days. Um, and we would gear that accordingly.

Sell stock. Buy stock is a very fluid thing. It's the actual stock numbers we carry on the farm. Um, a lot of these contracts I had on, uh, the set aside land was for five years by the time I got to year five, but I could see it happening on a annual basis, the diversity of plants that actually naturally came back from the soil. 'cause I didn't have enough money to actually seed any of the land myself. Um, if I could get landlords encouraged, they would put in some seed, but it was gen, genuinely a very narrow spectrum of plants, maybe rye grass and clover. But we were noting by year five that we had a diversity of clovers in there. We would have, uh, cocksfoot and timothy and fescues and the perennial grasses that are very natural to our landscape anyway, and they came back strong. We'd eliminated a lot of the weed species, the the thistle, uh, the stinging nettle and dock because the grazing that we were practicing encouraged the grass growth and, uh, knocked the weed species out. And landlords were then wanting to keep me on to graze the land, but were trying to push the rent right back up to what it would be comparable to, what you would get for cropping.

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: But they were comparing what they would get for cropping by u using the sums, including fertilizers, sprays, big machinery. Um, a lot of them went back that way and then wondered why their soil was again. The crops were failing. Or falling down in production. And the couple of fields that I stayed on grazing were just getting more fertile and more productive to the impact that I was grazing, the same number of sheep on half the acre to the confusing, um, comments from the landowner themselves. So it was a learning as we were moving and progressing with the flock of sheep, that really showed me that the ruminant can help soil to recover plants are naturally there. The seed bank in the soil is incredible, but as farmers, conventional farmers, don't give it chance.

Bobby: Yeah. So it sounds like a lot of things were working well for you. I mean, within three years of farming, you have an event of such a massive scale. How many people did you say were at that event?

Fernhill: 20,000.

Bobby: 20,000. I, I'm having a hard time even conceptualizing what that looks like on a farm or how you're able to pull that off.

Fernhill: It was a big surprise to me too, but it was already a gathering. We just hosted it on this land as such because it,

Bobby: Okay.

Fernhill: an income generation project for us.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: I suppose what we compare it to is we farm people as a cash crop opposed to plowing up the land and growing some lupins or this other crazy idea that someone thinks they're just gonna start growing. So we have grown an events business with people on the land because they're generally kinder on the soil generally.

Bobby: So with everything going relatively well and you know, you're talking about perennials coming back, you know, changes in species composition, um, what was it that drew you to holistic management in the first place? You know, we often hear from folks that they arrive to holistic management, usually from a point of desperation that like, oh, I'm about to lose the farm, something's gotta change.

It sounds like things were going relatively well. So what was the draw?

Fernhill: I, I needed to change, uh, weddings for wool as an enterprise on the farm. That was my desperation,

Bobby: Okay. It was getting out of the events business, which I, I used to do.

Fernhill: a, a particular type of person who didn't understand, you know, where me and Andy were coming from, and didn't understand the constraints that we were under because it was their special day, or, you know, the guests that they were bringing were, were just too demanding as such.

So. And it was going back to the Nuffield scholarship. I ended up in Patagonia and met some people through Ovis 21. And I was trying to get in, I stayed on their farm and I was trying to get over the border into Argentina and they just shut the borders overnight. So I found myself in Patagonia some extra days, and that's where I really sort of had time to look at what these, uh, multipurpose marinos were actually, you know, doing on the land. And that's where I realized they were mob grazed and they were putting as much focus into the, the wool returns as they was for the meat quality. that's where I came back to Andy and I said that this is what they're doing. And I think we're already, you know, we're, we're trying to aim for the same objectives here. that's where I contacted 3LM back here in 2015, I think, which was, it was still forming at the

Bobby: Yeah.

Fernhill: And so yeah, that's how I came across holistic management, which was in Patagonia.

Bobby: Wow.

Fernhill: So yeah.

Bobby: That's, uh, the pieces are all coming together now. That makes a lot of sense. So, Ovis 21 for folks listening, that's the savory hub in Argentina. Uh, they're one of the oldest hubs in the Savory network, and also one of the most productive in terms of just the, the sheer volume of, of land that they've influenced in people that they've trained over the years.

Just massive influence all throughout Latin America, uh, led by Pablo Borelli and teams out there. Okay. So you, so you were exposed to holistic management through the folks at Ovis 21. You came back to the uk, you got in contact with 3LM. What was it like, uh, going through holistic management training?

Were there any, was there anything that surprised you or, um, you know, key lessons that you took away from going through that initial training that differed from, you know, what you were already doing pretty well?

Fernhill: I found it quite challenging as much as they didn't give you answers. More, go out and have another look,

Bobby: Yep.

Fernhill: look really look and be part of what you're looking at.

Bobby: Yeah, you're not gonna get a, a consultation. It's gonna be more coaching and, and making you learn it yourself.

Fernhill: And that was good and what it taught me and where it, kind of helped. you kind of heard, there's lots of bits of our puzzle so far and I think we, we could start seeing that they're beginning to join up,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: we still felt there was big gaps or things hadn't been pulled together and. What the holistic training with the financial side,

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: it showed us, it gave us confidence in what we were doing, but also gave us guidance on how to plan moving forward. Um, it gave us, uh, courage to be even more exacting with our mob grazing. Um, I still find it a great challenge to do all of the, uh, planned grazing charts as much that it's in there, but I know that's not the right place for it to stay. I've gotta get it down on paper. I need a, um, an apprentice to work with me, but I, I think in Andy's fairness, he has 30 flocks of sheep at any one time.

So to put that into one piece of paper is not gonna happen.

Bobby: Yeah.

Fernhill: we don't own probably 8% of the land that we graze.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: that, that's the sort of grazing charts are really complex for our system. So Andy has it all written down in his diary and he is been doing it like that for 40 years. So it's not that there isn't a, you know, a traceable sort of record, it just doesn't fit into one

Bobby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've seen folks who will take multiple different charts and they have, you know, their wall is covered from floor to ceiling, uh, with, you know, one large, massive chart. But I hear you that the, the amount of legwork that's needed to get that all set up could certainly be burdensome.

Um, have you explored any of the digital tools for, for grazing planning at all in terms of, uh, simplifying that process?

Fernhill: I've got one I'm trying to, uh, with, more the, the block than the it part. Uh, a little business in the UK called Field Margin,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: you can plan out charts on all the, it's like a map can put your fields on that map and then you uh, plan out It'll give you alerts, you can record days grazing in each field. So it's a, it's very comparable to my diary in that I can look back say, well, that block gave me, um, enough kilograms dry matter to the equivalent stock, which I needed for maybe three months. And then I can break it down and I quite often will look at a fresh block of land, measure up, look at the contours and go, well, that I carry doing what I consider very simple sums that I carry 200 head of stock for two weeks or half a year. It depends on what the landlord requires we adjust accordingly. But we always try and farm anybody's land to a holistic planned grazing method in as tighter mob grazing as we can get.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: As you, everyone will appreciate. It all takes time. So then you have to be, um, run your own wellbeing bAllance going, move 30 lots of fencing every day, so I'll give them two days on each break that has a workload. Then you've gotta incorporate apprentices to show them how to do the electric fencing, when they get that, that's great. I don't have to do it. You pass that job on, and that's where we're always trying to be in sharing the knowledge, sharing the reasoning why we're doing things, and I think people get it. Whether they come from a farming background or not, um, college trained or not, they come to the farm and we explain the reasoning why we're doing something. It's like explaining, would you prefer your plate of food to change every day or do you want the same plate of food every day, every meal? Do you want a clean plate to go with that? And most people go, well, yes. I go, well, let's move the sheep or the cattle to a clean plate of food. I go, do they look happy? look really happy. So it's very simple and it ties back into with gem, with her degree, of the way animals behave naturally if you spend the time to watch them, will tell you that there is something good or there's something bad. Um, and I'm still learning to have a wiseness to actually pick up on those very. Minute kind of signals they give to you and give to each other it's, um, it's beautiful to be part of it. Quite challenging. Good to be part of it though. 

Bobby: Yeah. 

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Bobby: You were saying that the financial planning aspect of holistic management was the piece that, um, stood out. You specifically. And so I'm curious if that led to anything changing in your operation or how your enterprises are set up. Uh, what, what changed as a result of going through that holistic management training?

Fernhill: I think. Um, what we find really useful is the, the seven context checks

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: do have some quite hefty decisions to make here that are actually not really part of the farming enterprise. we kind of have the livestock, we have the a wool enterprise and we have what we call our events enterprise.

We have accommodation for sort of 40 people here. So we have a lot of, you know, decisions to make that surround this whole farm as a base. And there's times where we, we try and work out what the sort of log jam is in the seven context checks, you know, we can run it, the decisions through that. And it has helped you know, it gives us something to come back to when you sort of, you know, you're so focused in the now you forget the bigger picture. And I think that's the same with how we have of changed our viewpoint when it comes to holistic financial planning is it's all part of the same jigsaw and, um, it's not about the profit at the end of it. Certainly with my wool enterprise, it's the longevity. The longevity of the sheep, the longevity of the wool product, the longevity of having the same customers come back time and time again because they, they really value what we have done to say, you know, our land is regenerating.

We're gonna share this information with you. So it just changes the emphasis to, you know, from that pound sign at the end of the year you know, all the sort of reasons as to why we've got a project. We've got lots of projects to rebuild old buildings on the farm, and they all need a huge, um, cash input. don't wanna get in too much debt to the bank. Um, and I've noted with a lot of kind of commercial enterprises, of their money, they're earning, they're paying other big businesses for inputs into their business. And I've never really liked that. I never felt safe with it. So. We're in the starting blocks of rebuilding a very old house on the farm. It was the neighbors. All the roof timbers are all, well, all the timbers in the house are rotted out. So over the last few years we've been harvesting trees from off of our own farm we've got a, a wood milling to cut it all up and then we're going to put the roof back on, insulate it, the house with wool and put the floors in. So we've got another habitable house on the farm, and I've tried to break it down into the roof. Cutting the timber will cost 10,000 pounds. Putting the roof back on will cost 20,000 pounds, the floors in another 10,000, getting all the wool prepped. and boiling on the outside another 10,000 pounds.

So I break the project down. Lots more parts to it as well. I think we need plumbing and electrics and things like that, but I break it all down going well. That'll be hundred sheep. That will be 10 Ks. That will be another a hundred. She. So the last 10 years we've built the stock numbers up

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: and hopefully we've been waiting for the trade to rise as well.

And now we're gonna reduce numbers, capitalize, transfer part of the business into another type of our business. But it's all based on livestock.

Bobby: So this is something you've been planning for a number of years. So this is part of your, your land plan essentially that you've been working towards and, and incrementally, um, building up animal numbers to get to that point. Uh, that's fascinating. Well, congratulations on, on reaching that point and, and having everything going there.

Fernhill: do it now.

Bobby: Oh, it's not done yet. Oh, okay. I thought you were saying it was like underway and you've got apprentices that are building.

Fernhill: got the timber cut

Bobby: Okay.

Fernhill: and we've got the scaffolding up around the house,

Bobby: Well, I, I wish you an expedient process in finishing that project. 'cause I know how I, in terms of construction projects, they, and with building anything new, they often say it takes twice as long and costs twice as much. So I hope that's not the case. But it sounds like you've been very detailed in.

Fernhill: the window here. I can see cows bouncing around. In a month's time, we are lambing. So there's another generation of cash coming into the business

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: and it's about using, you know, resources that are from this landscape rather than importing timbers from a builder's merchant. Because we don't need to do that.

We're

Bobby: Yeah.

Fernhill: to grow our own sort of building materials and our food and our fiber. We also grow our own fuel to run the heating system, which is, you know, a log boiler and we capture the sun, which, you know, heats the building. It's about looking at lands, you know, holistically and you know, we're very fortunate that we have farm where we can harvest all of those materials and replenish them just as quickly as they deplete. I think that's, for us, is where our mindset fits really well when we came across holistic management is. Um, we're, we're kind of of the land, if you like.

Bobby: Yeah, it sounds like it. I mean, you're using wool insulation in your walls. Uh, you know, you're, you're selling wool, uh, in terms of, uh, clothing and garments. The, the food you eat, the timber that you're producing, you know, uh, bringing community in for some of those labor pieces so that it's a shared symbiotic, uh, you know, mutualistic experience between, you know, yourselves, the animals, uh, and the community.

Uh, there seems to be so much, uh. Through about your connection to the land and how you are not using the land. But I don't know, I like to think of it as in relationship with the land feels like, uh, a more appropriate way to view it. Um, but it seems like you guys are tackling it from a lot of different angles.

Fernhill: I think there are lots of different angles when you look at nature that. care, you can harvest a little bit off of a lot of things.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: And it with an understanding, I was very lucky when I was a very young shepherd with my, my family. We used to go to agricultural shows and I used to be farmed out with other livestock farmers, and help them that cow, help them with that sheep.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: Um, and I've met so many natural farmers. Some would've been born in the 18 hundreds, so they were very old. Shepherds when I met them. Never used any chemicals. Um, always were very quiet around the stock and would know them all and would watch them all. They had the time to do that, and they were still shepherds of the day that would fold their sheep across the hill and. We are just doing what they've done, and they would tell me about their grandfathers who were shepherds just out on the hill with a dog with a stick working for the governor who owned the big house down in the valley somewhere. But they were so happy with and content with their, uh, relationship with nature and with an animal that would produce a product. they were very, very proud of that. And it's enabled us to accept that you don't have to work in a city. You don't have to earn amount, drive the flash car, have the very glitzy life to actually get a genuine reward from our visit on planet Earth. We're here for a very short time.

Bobby: With all your years of, of shepherding, I think you probably have a very fine tuned skillset in terms of. Reading the land and the animals. And so I'm curious, when you're out, you know, walking a paddock right now, what, what is it that you're looking for? What are you observing? Uh, what are the things that stand out to you or that you're trying to observe, and how does that then affect your management decisions?

Fernhill: The scale of it, the location, and its surroundings, impact they will have upon what you are trying to achieve on that piece of land.

Bobby: I.

Fernhill: walk across it. And feel with your feet, it is, how soft it is. notice just on wandering across the diversity of plants and its general healthiness, whether there's a density to the um, I think you can feel it

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: wandering over lots of paddocks, lots of areas of land. Mm-hmm. can feel how healthy it is. Uh, you can, we've gone on to arable lands where it's lots of cultivations and they were put in a cover crop for us. Brassicas, and you graze it and it's a prolific crop, but there's a lack of diversity. There's a hardness to the ground.

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: Maybe you're looking, I will look into the soil, looking for worm casts, how much soil is exposed. And it is a huge variation, but it all faces back to the, um, the policy of that landowner.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: where we're trying to get to with our farming business is we have a lot more control over, uh, an extended period on that soil because you think you've got it just about right.

After four or five years, landlord changes their approach to what they own, then they're generally looking for more money.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: Uh, we were Soil Farmer of the year finalists, um, last year and, and I joked, I'm like, well, we never even see our soil. You.

Bobby: Because it's so well covered.

Fernhill: Well, that's it. That, you know, that that's what we, I notice most of all when I walk across other landscapes is the amount of bear patches and the sort of hardness, the cracking, you know, that the sort of, I look at soil when I see it because we don't see it. And, you know, when I'm in a paddock with the livestock, um, you know, I generally use all my senses.

I try not to take any machinery there, even though you have to if it's winter feeding time. But my favorite approach is, you know, to sort of listen before they even notice that I'm listening, because they'll tell you lot of what's going on, you know, in their own community because we try and run the animals as a community.

So our herd of cows, they're all born and bred on this farm, know, they are a family and. You know, changing anything within that herd has its effects. And so we're always monitoring animal behavior based on what we have to do, um, and the natural environment in which it's, you know, what, what it's giving to them.

Obviously we're, we're coming out of quite an easy winter with less beaten up than we have done by this time, by many weed winters in the past. But with what's called the hungry gap of year in that we we're just at the end of winter and because of the height of this farm, we're not quite bursting with all the fresh grass that you might see sort of, you know, if you were sea level perhaps. and so, you know, there is, there's still quite a lot of demands on the animals and so we need to make sure that what we're putting in front of them is, um, sort of meeting all their nutritional targets. So, yeah. Not

Bobby: you,

Fernhill: on whenever we walk the paddock.

Bobby: yeah, so you're, you're monitoring for a variety of things and you know, with so many years of experience, I think a lot of this is just intuitive. Um, and, and automatic, you know, it's kind of like when you're out walking the land with Allan Savory, he'll be 10 steps ahead of you into the, in terms of the things that he's observing.

And you kind of need to reel him back sometimes, be like, no, no, no. Yeah. I see that you're onto something right there, but I need you to walk me through that process of how you actually got to that observation, because I'm trying to keep up and my for you're seeing from your decades of experience. So it sounds like you're kind of in that advanced stage of observation, uh, based on the decades that you're bringing to this.

Um, and so I'm wondering, you know, for those maybe that are newer to, uh, to farming, are there any tips or tricks or, or specific things like a certain cue that you see in terms of animal behavior that lets you know, oh, they're not happy, or, oh, they need to move, or are there any specific things that stand out to you as, as key indicators that there needs to be something that

Fernhill: I think ruminants like an afternoon nap as well. They're like a siesta

Bobby: mm-hmm.

Fernhill: sometimes or many times. We go out and sort of that time, so 2, 3, 4 o'clock in the afternoon and all the herd or all the sheep will be sat ruminating. For us that indicates that they've had their film and that their body is resting.

You know, they're not searching around looking for something else that they haven't had yet that day. And they can just, you know, ruminate and, you know, they have a little, have a little snooze in the afternoon. And sometimes, you know, as a, as an example, you might not see that in a dairy herd

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: because they're always, you know, it, they have a much higher sort of turnaround of nutrient requirements.

And so for me, I, I, I just like to see them having a little afternoon nap in the field. It is, um, yeah, their wellbeing. You've got to, you've gotta be able to look at your animals and understand all their year twitches, tail twitching, uh, their own social behavior in their group. The noise they're making, if they're making a lot of noise, especially sheep, they're generally getting out. If it's cattle, they'll talk to you. Um, they'll let you know if for some reason the water drop's broken, they'll let you know if they think they ought to get another move. You'll notice quite regularly when you turn, uh, stock into a, a fresh paddock. In the uk we have a lot of hedge rows and they'll go straight to the hedge row it will indicate that maybe they're missing or low in some sort of mineral. But what we found over the course of the years, while we've been, practicing the paddock grazing where they're getting fresh feed and a more diverse length of sward, they seem to be more content. Their gut feel is more bAllanced. So they're generally more content. And if they're content. They've got generally good growth, weight, growth gain. producing good milk, producing good fiber, and they're a pleasure to look after. And that's we're always trying to get to is that if we're getting it right, it's a pleasure. It 

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: all the stress outta, outta so much. Especially, sorry, you stood on the side of the, on a paddock with a busy road. All those vehicles rushing up and down again. I haven't got any of that stress.

Bobby: Hmm. How do you bAllance the ecological needs of the landscape with the nutritional requirements for the animals? And also, I guess looking at the quality of the wool and the factors that might influence that. How, how do you bAllance all those different pieces at the same time?

Fernhill: I suppose what people, um, often don't understand, and it is, I'm not saying it's farmers, I'm saying it's the human population is what we need our nutrients for. Obviously we have maintenance, which is what we all need to, you know, live and breathe every day. Um, you might have maintenance and growth if you are a young animal. you might have maintenance growth and then you might have pregnancy, um, in the state of a cow as well. You would have, you could have maintenance growth. A and lactation or drop the growth and you might have maintenance, um, sort of pregnancy and lactation. And so by understanding what the animal actually needs each day, um, just to sort of, you know, fulfill all of those requirements. Andy doesn't, he's very modest about his ability to sort of walk a pasture and calculate, and obviously it's something that we have done with holistic management and that's reframed it into a different sort of, um, plan, action control monitor is Andy's mantra, and so we do use that, but he does it very quickly in his, you know, 40 years of experience. And it is literally, you know, you work out how many animals you have, you work out what their requirements are, and then you plan accordingly to how often you can move those animals. You can't move them every day, give them, you know, a 48 hour. If you can't move, you can only move them once a week. Well then plan it for that.

So it's the ability to understand forage and you won't get it right every day. Because if the weather changes and suddenly you get three inches of rain, then you know it's about planning ahead so that there is a pad that you can just move them into straight away, just to take them out of that sort of scenario. Is that about right? Is trying not to get yourself in a corner, a reserve plan up your sleeve. Um, it may be that two, three summers ago it was plus 30 degrees, which is very hot for this area. We're fortunate we got some woodland. We just opened the woodland gates up and let the stock in there so they could have shelter. And they came out of there so happy that they're forage in their own time, but it's trying to have the ability to always have forage in front. Where we were maybe 10 years ago, we were probably overstocked on some places, so we had to keep moving on, um, to leave any residue behind. where we took it too tight, we noticed the regrowth was a lot longer. Um, so we're refining the ability understand grass growth in, in whichever season it is. So we leave enough residue, give enough rest you've got a good sword to move back into when you come back after your 30 days minimum up to 50, 90 days, on the productivity of that field and the landscape it's on. And your landlord's requirements on some, some of the farms we're renting. it's a, I guess it's just that ability to take all factors on and make a decision and move on and know if you've made a mistake and try not to do it again.

Bobby: You guys are processing a lot of different information, both qualitative and quantitative, and it sounds like a lot of it is stored up in Andy's head and also in his diary. Uh, but I'm curious, do you do any formal ecological monitoring on your land? Um, either through EOV, which is Savory's Land Monitoring Protocol, or have you done others in the past?

And just curious, um, what that looks like and how that informs your operation.

Fernhill: I mean, Andrew has done lots of, um, we have done soil tests for 20 odd years, haven't we? So there is all of that data. But yeah, after we did our holistic management training, I think it would've been, uh, two years later, EOV became available and we were like, oh, fantastic. Let's do that. We, we jumped on it straight away without a doubt because, um, we were just fascinated for, just for ourselves to know. And to understand more about our decisions and how it affects, you know, how ultimately how the soil is performing and how that affects the ability for wildlife to live alongside us. You know, we, we, we, we are very happy to welcome all species onto this land, and that's a big part of our farming system. Um, so we share it with wildlife as well as the humans. So, yeah, I mean, I can screen share if you like. I'm not, I have it on our website, which is, we have four years of data from EOV, so I could try. Let me have a look, see

Bobby: Sure. Yeah. I don't know if we've done that on the podcast yet, but We'll, we'll figure out how to make it work.

Fernhill: Uh, There we go. Look. EOV, uh, in Hi in history, Bobby, we've also done lots of bird surveys on the farm and

Bobby: Okay.

Fernhill: we've spoken with lots of botanical studies on the farm. We've done before we got here as well, so we had a baseline of what was here. Um, and you quite often take for granted that Oh, what, what is here?

We'll stay here and won't go anywhere and we won't get any more. And then we got into the EOV and yeah, it is amazing and it's getting more interesting the more we proceed through. we've got some figures up there. I'll them.

Bobby: And. I'm just gonna say for those that are

listening and they're not watching the video of this podcast, um, you've got, uh, a screenshot of your EOV dashboard, um, showing the different data going from 2020 up through 2024, uh, and looking at your ecological health index and, you know, red, yellow, green, all that sort of stuff.

So if folks are interested in seeing this actual data, you can jump over to the video on YouTube, um, and you should be able to, to see what we're looking at there.

Fernhill: it is also available on, on our Fern Hill fiber websites. I've kind of set up a page, which has got a bit of the history. There's some videos, but it has got all of this data on there as well. And, you know, that feeds very nicely, our sort of wool buying sort of, um, industry, if you like, people that are, you know, they want to know that their wool is coming from sheep that are regenerating landscapes.

So it's, it's available on there. Yeah, so 2020 we did short-term and long-term monitoring, and that happens every five years. And so we will be doing EOV long-term and short-term monitoring again, which, is seventh to the seventh, eighth and 9th of July this year. So we'll be able to update with some more data.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: you know, it, it's just very interesting to see, um, you know, our water cycle and our mineral cycles. Um, obviously we're on top of the hill. It's, it doesn't quite burn that dry in the summer, but that's because we don't have any bear patches on our land. I think, which is a big part of history, is that we've never dropped a plow into any of these fields maybe once when it was, um. It was drained, wasn't it? Initially, initially drained before we owned it, and it was, it was just a bit of a mess. So Andy did drop a flow into that. But you know, and then that, that also helps the sort of energy flow in that we have lots of species here. We get very excitable ISTs come because we've got acid and alkaline plants that grow side by side because it's got x industrial sort of scars all over the landscape. And, um, we have 150 species in a kilometer square on this farm. you know, that in itself has perhaps twice, if not three times what you would find on most agricultural landscapes. So, you know, we're, we're just happy that there is evidence out there that can support some of this information in a format that's global.

You know, we want it to be something that anyone else can have a look at and yeah, come and get involved with if they want to.

Bobby: Yeah. So what I'm seeing from this right here is, so the, the data that you're presenting right here starts in 2020 and you've got it broken down by the four different, um, ecosystem processes. So water cycle, mineral cycle, energy flow, which is photosynthetic capture, and then community dynamics or biodiversity and, and succession of species.

And so in 2020, your water cycle was the strongest of the four different ecosystem processes coming in at a 77%. The others a little bit lower, but it looks like year over year things have been increasing across the board. Um, has this information, this data informed any of your management at all or what have you taken away from having this information?

Fernhill: I think the key to myself, we've

intensified our paddock grazing. I.

And been as hard as we can be on sure we give the soil the rest. It requires the plants, the rest, um, to the effect that if we have animals that don't fit that system, our cows, we really want them to maintain a good body condition all the year round. Those that fit that system, um, we farm out of our, our farm, they will go, we will sell them. It's the same policy with the sheet. So it's aided our ability to control the genetics of the flock and the herd those that suit the system in a system. We think we're getting correct with these figures.

Bobby: Hmm. Do you have more, uh, here that you wanted to show, uh, beyond what's on this screen right here or was

Fernhill: no, no. I just thought it was useful just to say, you know, we, there is a dashboard for, you know, EOV available and it's there, there many more pages available to us. As, you know, the land owners,

Bobby: Yes.

Fernhill: each plot of land has its own set of data, its own set of photos. As I say, this is just a dashboard which, um, you know, it does help people understand what we're looking for, what we're monitoring, and how we're able to sort of influence, you know, those dynamics if you like, to create the overall index score.

So, no, I'm all done. Should I stop sharing?

Bobby: Uh, sure. Yeah. And, uh, again, we'll, we'll put the link to that part on the Fern Hill website, uh, that has that EOV data. We'll put that in the show notes for folks that wanna go take a look in greater detail at that. Um, so your data has been trending in the positive direction, meaning your land is getting better.

The four ecosystem processes are improving over time as a result of your proactive land management, which I think that's the goal that we wanna see in all of agriculture, hopefully, is, you know, these positive feedback loops that are reinforcing itself to, to create more life, um, where life is needed. Um, are you then using this EOV data and verification since it's moving in a, in a positive, uh, trend?

Are you using this in Land to Market in terms of, uh, differentiating your wool in the marketplace?

Fernhill: Yeah, so we partner or we work with HD Wool, which um, you know, a fantastic company in the north of England and Jo Dawson has insured that all his staff that work with him. For him are, you know, trained in sort of holistic management as well. So we feel that we can communicate to them kind of on the same level, which is, is interesting. And they're interested in our fibers. Uh, mostly the sort of white ones, which they can, um, turn into insulation apparel for their clothing company. So we, we know that there is a need for our type of fiber, you know, with clothing brands that are actually global. So yes, it's, it's something that, you know, land market is very, very new over here in the uk It's not particularly well known, but it's also very, very new where you are as well.

So, you know, we're thankful that it's coming along.

Bobby: Yeah.

Fernhill: so yeah, and I think it's just a really useful way of consumers being able to trust the brand in the sourcing of those, you fibers, whatever it might be. So that they can support farmers that are, you know, walking that extra mile, you know, doing those extra hours just to ensure that their land is sort of, you know, regenerating.

Bobby: Hmm. So the, the folks that you're working with that are purchasing your wool, uh, I'm guessing that they are coming to you, one, because of your land management that you know you are. Practicing the gold standard of land management, and you've got the results to demonstrate that your land is in fact regenerating, uh, through that EOV data.

But also you guys have taken a fairly innovative approach towards the, the sheep breeds that you have. You have, uh, you've crossed, bred six different types of sheep. Is that correct?

Fernhill: Yeah. We call it the best of the British six, and again, as, as Andy said, it's, it's about finding an animal that suits the, the system there is quite a few rare specialty breeds amongst those six breeds. Um, you know, renowned for being very delicate or generally what we would say is dropping dead, which isn't very helpful, you know, that you want a sheep to, you know, want to live and to be able to live happily in a, in a natural scenario, which is what we're replicating, is livestock on land 24 7 in family groups doing what they do. Um, and so because yarn is the highest sort of potential return from your wool clip, the breeds that are doing well on our system are kind of the, the type that you would want to spin into yarns. Um, but there is two different types of yarn or three, but make mostly you can create something that is a woolen spun, um, and then you can go a step further and create, um, a worsted spun yarn, which obviously the British Isles are famous for, for the, the tweed. If you like, is from long fibers that are carded, um, and to create a very tight yarn, which would then make fabulous cloth. Um, and so what we've been able to do with the six breeds is maintain natural colors cheaper, not white. It's cheaper, only white because humans like to add color to them. There is color in most sheep breeds, you know, somewhere like that little seed bed, you know, of all those plants that are hiding in the soil. Genetically, there is natural colors in many sheep breeds. So we celebrate that

Bobby: Yes.

Fernhill: and um, it means that we can lengthen the fibers. So they're really strong, they're really long. Um, they've got lots and lots of luster, so they're really silky and shiny. They've got tremendous drap. So you can create a whole range of clothing that's real strong, got loads of longevity, you know, you can have it in your wardrobe for a very, very long time. Um, but equally it's soft. It's next to the skin. It, you know, it ticks all of those But you know, for a sheep in the field, you know, she's happy, she's grass fed, she gets mob grazed. She's really, really prolific and you know, is content. Um, so yeah, it's about, you know, relating the sheep to the wool products and then relating the sheep back to the land management system.

Bobby: Could you walk us through the, the six different breeds that you've crossbred and what are the specific qualities that you were aiming, um, to get out of each breed

Fernhill: Yeah, I'm just gonna do that 'cause he's the sheep breeder really.

Bobby: All.

Fernhill: Many years ago when I was lad, my parents used to show Rylands, which are a very old traditional breed from Hereford in England. I was brought up with them and they were a down breed, so they're good extreme muscle development, a quite a short wool. they were famous for supplying the cloth the Lester Monks two, 300 years ago. So that get instilled a knowledge base, that wool is useful.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: Um, and then we moved, I moved myself started keeping textiles, which are very meat density, breed origin, origin from the Netherlands, from, um, an island there. But we found the wool wasn't so good. They were a more needy sheep. They'd put on really good condition, on really good grazing with surplus food. But you don't always have that. Um, and then, uh, uh, another ploy I'D ended up shearing on the Shetland Isles off the North coast of Scotland. They're very hard hardy sheep up there. They're about 35 kilo body weight, quite small, lovely wool, 30 odd different colors and color shades. Um, so I brought those down to Somerset and a lot of people were interested in the wool, but as the farming, uh, policies have changed, small sheep are no longer so viable. So we started crossing them with the luster wool breeds, namely the tease water. The Wednesday Dale, Lester, uh, both the blue face Lester and the English Lester. We tried a whole multitude of other breeds. Um, but they were the ones that gave us a little bit more scale to the sheep. Beautiful wool coming in, lots of different colors. And then we also ran a Romney ram across the Shetlands, slightly different, more of a meat breed, a lot of hardiness within that breed itself. Great converters of roughage, less fertilized type grass good meat, good wool. So that gave us what we would call the woolens fun flock. then we have the luster flock, which are those breeds, but rotating the si around using the Wednesday doll blue face, Leicester or the tea water, to give that lovely luster fleece. And it gave a scale to the sheep as well. So the origins of 35 Kilo ewe has now moved to a 55 Kilo ewe. The Shetland would give about a kilo of wool. These sheep are now giving two and a half, three kilos of wool. So the actual yield per job, per livestock unit has increased.

Bobby: Wow, that's impressive. So not only are you able to increase the productivity of the land, the wool production per animal is going up, and also the quality of that wool has been improved because of the cross-breeding that you've done. What.

Fernhill: hard on our culling, anything that is not of the correct wool quality. a lot of breeds in the uk you will get kemp hair, much coarser hair, which you don't want next to your skin. Like with Yeah, like, whiskers. You don't want them next to your skin. It'll make you itch a little bit.

Bobby: Yeah.

Fernhill: And that is what has given wool in the past a bad day. we've specifically not kept them in the flock. So every fleece, when it comes off, the sheep is inspected.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: And if the sheep is carrying kemp hair, especially if it's a ram, we get rid of them. So we're very strong on our selection of what actually stays in the flock to maintain as high a level of not only welfare for itself, good feet, good attitude, good converters are for it, but they carry good quality wool as well.

Bobby: Hmm.

Fernhill: Yeah.

From a, from an economic, economic point of view as well, I hope there's not many sheep shearers listening, but you pay per sheep. if you're, if they're only cutting one kilo of wool, they have to cut three kilos of wool, so for the same amount of money. So it's

Bobby: Hmm,

Fernhill: a scale system as well. Processing wool is, is, is. it is an economy of scale.

Bobby: hmm. Now, you mentioned working with HD Wool, uh, with Joe Dawson over there. In terms of that being one throughput for your wool, are there other markets that your wool is going into?

Fernhill: Yeah. So the Fern Hill Fiber enterprise is kind of like a sister business to Fern Hill Farm. And there's three elements that I consider that we, you know, we regularly sort of aim to achieve within that business. And one of them is education. So we take on textile students on their internships or postgraduate sort of placements where, you know, they are, um, learning about textiles and have never really been on a farm.

And so we try and sort of infiltrate their minds into the beauty of wool. They learn to shear, they learn to grade wool, they learn to sort, and they help me sort of run the back of our fiber business. predominantly is, um, supplying individual fleeces to hand crafters. And, you know, we can ship all over the world, but that's getting very, very difficult. So we generally sort of market individual fleeces all around the uk. specialist wool shows, um, where people can buy, you know, one fleece blades on handpicked. So it's absolutely perfect. So all the fibers in that bag you know, all the same length, the same strength, the spray quality. Um, and so that is, that's led into us selling a few washed fibers, some sort of rovings and sliver that people can hand spin.

We also sell some yarns and some finished clothing hats, jumpers, socks, blanket scarves, sheep skins left, all those sorts of things. And then the third part of it is we commission yarns and felts and fabrics for other sort of artisan or small businesses, if you like, here mostly in the Southwest, because they can come here and they can meet me and Andy, and they can see the sheep, and they can get involved with the shearing and they have the whole story. And it's, you know, it's, it's real, it's happening. It's on their doorstep and we make it available. That's what we do. We make it easy.

Bobby: Yeah. Well, it sounds like it, I mean, bringing people out to experience this on the land, whether it's through the fiber experience event or you were saying these, these textile students that are coming to get that, that firsthand experience. Um, I, I think it's really admirable, the seemingly open door policy that you guys seem to have, um, with everything that you guys are doing.

Um, is there anything that, aside from, you know, building the house that you were mentioning, uh, are there any pieces that you're working towards that, you know, you've got aspirations of getting to, either as it relates to land management or as it relates to the wool enterprise? Are there, are there things that you're trying to, to move towards in the.

Fernhill: A day off would be nice. One day off would be lovely retirement. But Andy or no? Um, yeah, where we'd like to get to, I'd like to get to a even more regenerative state within our farming system. I'm trying to think of how we could almost make it like a live learning place that with modern technology now I could be anywhere in the world and that'd be quite nice. And communicate with the person who could be phone, satellite link. Should we do this? Should we do that in with your experience? I go, well, what do you think? And they could just get on and do it.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: Um, so to be able to step back and still have, uh, um, an environment which you are involved in and can step in and step out of be wonderful. We have two sons, but they are 18 and 20 and they have a whole world out there to explore what they really want to do in life. and myself are doing this, as we said, because we want to, and I think working with livestock on a farm and that in entails, you have to really want to do it. And if you're lucky enough to find something within that industry that really excites you as well.

That's brilliant. Um, so yeah, we'd like to be able to step back a little bit. Um, I'd like to do more traveling. I'd like to meet more shepherds from around the world. Maybe a little bit sad to go and meet more shepherds, but

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Fernhill: it's the way of life that I can relate to. And a lot of countries around the world have sheep, farmers, shepherds, um, and there's always a story to be exchanged with them and maybe to go and do a bit of late hearing.

Bobby: In terms of, uh, connecting with other shepherds, are there any specific cultures or regions of the world that you're wanting to connect with? Just to kind of put that out into the ether and, and see who's listening.

Fernhill: While I was at, um, university, my final year thesis was on nomadic rangeland sheep production in the middle and far east. Some of those countries are a little bit, maybe too hot to travel through. Um, I would love to go like Mesopotamia, Fertile Crescent where sheep farming originated 10,000 years ago, perhaps. Um, the Gardens of Babylon was so, say, tended by shepherds of the most beautiful scenery in the world, will have moving through them. Um, as I referred earlier, world, planet Earth is a beautiful place. Um, it would be so amazing to be able to meet others who are in a similar head space to ourselves, enjoying the landscape, getting a genuine reward by working in harmony with it. Um, it will give courage to push on. In our communications, maybe with other people who are looking to go down uh, farming line, holistic training. Maybe we need to have a chat to some policy makers and some politicians to just explain how to relax a little bit. Yeah.

Bobby: I guess on that, that last point about politicians and, you know, policy makers, if you had a magic wand and you could just wave it and change one policy that it is that you are up against, that something that you face in your daily life, what would you change?

Fernhill: Education. Mm-hmm. Teaching people that healthy food you put into your body from a healthy landscape will reduce so many problems. But as we're all very well aware of probably people listening to this policy is driven by big business, holistic farming. Regen farming really give a lot of money away. It creates a wonderful product, but big business will not make much money out of it. So there needs to be a reason somehow of getting them on board a little bit. Um, If people could eat healthy food produced by a regen policy that benefited more people in their actual head space of thinking holistically rather than just dollar in the pocket. Um, yeah, that's what I think I'd like to try and see change. it's beginning to happen in different places. Um, we've just got, all of us have just gotta keep on encouraging it. 

Bobby: Well, I'm impressed with everything that you guys have going on. Uh, Andy, your decades of experience. I mean, Andy and Jen, both of you guys, the experience that you bring to the table, the knowledge about shepherding and wool production and everything you're doing to, to push the envelope and really advance what's possible.

Um, for those perhaps that are. Listening and, and don't have the depth of experience that you two do. Do you have any parting words of advice that you'd like to leave with folks about farming or, or wool production or, or anything that is, you know, calling you right now?

Fernhill: I, I, I just say, you know, just, it, it will evolve naturally, you know, trust in nature. I think we're too trusting of what the tutor might say or the teacher or what we read in a textbook instead of, you know, eyes on the landscape, you know, eyes on the livestock. And, just because it's been like that way before doesn't make it right. Um, it's okay to be different. It's okay to try something that you think. Um, will enhance your own situation because every day we are still learning every day. And some days, yeah, you don't get it right, but it's not, it's, it's, it's not the be all and end all. It's about re repetition almost. and you find in the groove, you know, you, you, you know what your body is capable of. You know, our bodies are a tool. not meant to just press a button and things be done for us. You know, we're, we're part of a system. So, yeah, just trust in yourself. I think you have goals. Don't be worried about failing. Plan. Very good at university. One lecturer that really got in my head, he said, plan, action, control. Repeat it, study it, look at all angles, and then look at other systems. Open days. Um, peer reviews of practices. Um, I've been fortunate enough, I've met with Joel Salatin. He's had an influence. I've read Gabe Brown's book. He's had an influence. were very fortunate. We went to Zimbabwe and met with, Allan and Jody, Allan and Jody out there, and that was amazing. Um, so it also enhances us to have an open gate policy. People come down the drive, meet them. generally busy if they want to get involved, get involved. Um, and we just wanna share. So hopefully, uh, encourage people to have a go. Just have a go.

Bobby: Hmm. Let's get going. Wonderful. Well thank you guys so much. Um, where can folks find you online? If they want to keep up with everything that you're doing and maybe perhaps buy some of your wool, what's the best place for them to find you?

Fernhill: Uh, okay. So yeah, we have two, two kind of websites. We have Fern Hill Farm, generally covers more information about the livestock and the events business. So that's the, the festivals and the accommodation and the on-farm events that we run. Um, Fern Hill Fiber is the one that's a dedicated website just for our love of all, if you like. we have a little shop on there. There's lots of data um, all the sort of events that we either host here or I travel to with my little traveling wool shop. So yeah, Fern Hill Farm or Fern Hill Fiber.

Bobby: Wonderful. Well, we'll put those links in the show notes. Uh, and again, Andy and Jen, thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedules during lambing season to sit down and chat today. Really appreciate it.

Fernhill: Lovely to meet you Bobby. Thank

Bobby: All right.

Fernhill: much. good

Bobby: Thank you.

Fernhill: See you here next year.

Bobby: I would love to, yes. I'm gonna put it on my calendar and I will be in Europe.

Uh, so yes, I think it will be easier.

Fernhill: seven miles from Bristol International Airport, so we can come and pick

Bobby: Okay.

Fernhill: the airport.

Bobby: Good. Forward to it. Thanks guys.

Fernhill: thank you ever so much.

Bobby: Cheers.

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