Regenerating Patagonia’s Grasslands

 Bobby (intro): Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Ruminations. I am your host, Bobby Gill. Today's guest is Pablo Borelli. He's the co-founder of Ovis 21, the savory hub in Argentina that has directly influenced over 26 million hectares and trained more than 5,000 people in holistic management and holistic planned grazing.

Ovis 21 is one of, if not the most successful Savory hubs in the world, both as a thriving business and for its outsized impact in terms of hectares regenerated, people trained and industries transformed. Pablo is a Savory accredited holistic management educator. an ecological outcome verification or EOV master verifier, and a former member of savory's global staff, where he led the EOV global program under his leadership.

Ovis 21 has introduced innovations that are reshaping the wool industry, including the multi purpose Merino breed, the sustainable wool chain, and of course the widespread adoption of holistic management throughout South America. Born and raised in Patagonia, Pablo earned his degree in agronomy from Mar del Plata National University, and he has devoted his career to solving the ecological challenges of arid grasslands.

His early work focused on desertification in Patagonia, where he worked to help local producers restore degraded landscapes through effective grassland management. Though, we will hear from Pablo in this episode why he wasn't necessarily effective at that at the time, uh, might be due to the fact that he was not yet introduced to holistic management.

Uh, he later served as Research Station Director for Argentina's National Institute of Agricultural Technology, or INTA, and he contributed to the creation of a national sheet policy while working for the National Agriculture Secretary. In 2011, Pablo co developed the Grassland Regeneration and Sustainable Standard, or GRASS, in partnership with the Nature Conservancy.

The GRASS standard certified over a million hectares of Patagonian land, and through a collaboration with Pablo, the Savory Institute, Michigan State University, and other leading rangeland scientists, the GRASS standard was further expanded upon and evolved into what is now known as Savory's Ecological Outcome Verification Protocol, Which is being used to monitor ecological health on over 3 million hectares around the world and serves as proof of land regeneration in savory's land to market program.

I'm really excited for you to hear this episode today. We dive into Pablo's background in agronomy. What it was like first being introduced to holistic management and some of the paradigm shifts that were needed and things he needed to unlearn or relearn. Uh, and then we do a deep dive on holistic management and holistic plan grazing.

Uh, given that this is early on in the podcast, we thought that this was important to kind of cover at length. If you're someone who been around the world of holistic management for quite some time, that part might not be as informative as, um, You know, we're not getting into, uh, more advanced techniques or specifics.

They're more just kind of doing, um, the, the overview for folks that are newer to the space. Um, either way, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Uh, Pablo is, uh, an incredible leader who has, is doing amazing work down in Argentina and beyond. So without further ado, uh, let's hear the episode with Pablo Borelli. 

Bobby (ad): This episode is brought to you by Savory's growing community of regenerating members, listeners like you who care about real solutions for our global grasslands. Over the past decade, the Savory Institute has helped restore more than 100 million acres through holistic planned grazing, creating productive and resilient landscapes where fertile soils lead to healthy food and thriving communities.

But this kind of impact is only possible with support from people like you for just 10 a month. Less than the cost of lunch. Your support can help restore nearly 400 acres of land every single year. And as a regenerating member, you'll join our global community of over 600 like minded people committed to making real change where it matters the most.

You'll get access to Savory's private online network. A free holistic management, online course discounts from partner brands, and even opportunities to connect with Allan savory signing up as fast, easy, and it makes a real impact. Just visit savory.global/member that's savory.global/member.

And start making an impact today. 

Bobby: Pablo Borelli, good to see you my friend.

Pablo: Very nice to see you, Bobby.

Bobby: Yeah, how long has it been since we've seen each other in person? 

Pablo: Yeah, at least. Yeah, for four to five years. Yeah.

Bobby: My god,

Pablo: Before the pandemic,

Bobby: Was it really before…

Pablo: For sure.

Bobby: Wow, time, time has flown and In that time, I know you've been a busy man. I know you've been training people in holistic management all throughout South America and the world and getting involved with ecosystem service markets and out monitoring land bases of all types and just generally shaking things up, uh, in the land management world all throughout South America and beyond.

Um, You know, so you run a savory hub, Ovis 21, and it's the savory hub that covers Argentina by my numbers. You guys have influenced over 26 million hectares of grassland and you've trained over 5000 people in holistic management. of them are probably trained directly by you. Um, you're one of one of, if not the most successful savory hubs in the world, both in terms of the hectares that you've regenerated and just the, you know, massive scale of your business and what you've been able to influence throughout, you know, the, the sheep industries, the wool industries, um, you know, and beyond. Tell just about your path, you know, where did you start? How did you get into this work? How did you get interested in grasslands and agronomy, I guess? And then how did that eventually lead you to holistic management? Um,

Pablo: uh, uh, to make it short, I, I am from the southernmost tip of the continent, South America. I'm from Rio Gallegos, that's close to the Magellan Strait. And, uh, when I finished, uh, high school and, and decided what, what I wanted to, to study, I decided agronomy because it was the closest that we don't have, we didn't have at that moment range management colleges in Argentina.

So agronomy was the closest. And I went up north to, uh, to study agronomy, but, uh, with the idea of coming back to my place. And after I, I, uh, I cursed, uh, did the training in ecology and I had, uh, a professor that was, uh, he saw that I was interested in grasslands. And he gave me the first papers of, uh, range management that I could read.

And I, when I went back that summer, you know, I saw the land and I could, uh, decodify or understand what was happening. It was so sad, the, the certification, the over overwhelming the certification and, and the, uh, the erosion of the land that I said, this is what I wanna do when I want to do with my life.

And that was. My commitment that I kept until now. And so I, when I finished my career, I started working as a scientist for inter and I, I started working on grassland evaluations. So, I started doing metrics for the grasslands and I started working on, uh, on the old paradigm of range management, which was.

Adjust the stocking rate. The problem is, is the sheep. So you need to reduce the number of sheep. So I kept first as a, as a scientist. And then, and after that, as a consultant, I kept almost two decades telling people that they needed to reduce their, their sheep stocks. To be able to keep their grasslands alive and, um, after that amount of time, after making a lot of people lose a lot of money, we realized that we were killing the patient with our recommendations.

The grasslands did not improve at all, and I wasn't aware of holistic management at all. couldn't find a direct reading of holistic management up to that moment. And I, I heard that, uh, uh, through, um, Wally O'Connor, who has a sheep class that came from Australia and he, he made a training in Australia and he said, you're wasting your time with adjusting stocking rates on continuous grazing.

You need to do holistic management. So, uh, I, I am grateful to Wally. In the sense of, um, uh, telling us the truth and showing an alternative. And also, I am grateful to the Fenton family, our partners, co founders of OVIS 21. They say, I want to try my place. So, in 2008, we brought Brian, uh, uh, Brian Marshall to Patagonia, and we did the first holistic planned grazing in Patagonia in 2008.

And just a few months later, the results were amazing. Uh, I've never seen that before. So then we couldn't stop. We need, we had to learn and learn. And it has been a fascinating drive, uh, journey.

Bobby: When, when Wally came to visit, and he was telling you that the way that you're doing things are wrong, that adjusting stocking rates isn't going to solve the desertification that you were experiencing in Patagonia, you know, I would assume for a lot of people that that would put them on their heels and put them on guard that, you were They would get defensive, like, no, no, no, no, we're right. It's what you're talking about is ridiculous. It's, it's snake oil. You know, that's kind of the perspective that we get from a lot of folks when they hear about regenerative grazing, holistic planned grazing, know, things in that field. So what was it that allowed you to not be defensive when, when holistic management was first brought to you?

Pablo: Well, I think if you, if you are. serious about your purpose, then you need to be detached from your paradigms. So, uh, for that moment, it was quite obvious that we were failing. So it would be very, uh, very stupid to Reject an an opportunity to solve the problem when you haven't been able to do so for a long time.

So I think it's, uh, it's a matter of focusing on the purpose. We needed to solve the certification. It was not important to be right. Unfortunately, many people that have a say and talk against regenerative management. They are not managing land. And so they are not, they don’t suffer the consequences of their recommendations.

And in our case, uh, that as we were working on the private sector, if my client goes, uh, declining, I don't have a business, uh, a viable business. So we needed to produce solutions for the farmer. And, uh, and it was clear that what we were proposing was not enough, not good enough and, uh, and holistic management produced very quick results, very impressive results.

And as we learned how to use it, it, uh, I could say it clearly saved my career and allow us to see the land coming back, which was my earliest dream. So it was like a dream come true to see a grassland flowering, everything going back and coming back to life and the farmer very happy. And, uh, it was, uh, it was so, um, rewarding to see that.

And it was, this is why. This is the reason why I'm working in this.

Bobby: What, what was it that initially drew you to grasslands and rangelands? I think in the environmental space, there's a lot of people that are drawn to, you know, the big charismatic megafauna and oceans and forests, uh, grasslands don't usually rise to the top of the list for a lot of people.

So what was it about Grasslands that initially drew you in in those early days? Transcripts

Pablo: Well, yeah, because my identity is Patagonian, and in Patagonia you only have grasslands to work with. And my family come from the rural sector, so I had an experience of the sheep farming from my early days. And I was committed to solve those problems. I was not thinking globally in that moment. Uh, even when I started, when we started holistic management, we were not thinking globally, we were thinking locally.

And after that, we realized that solving regeneration or, or getting those grasslands to work, it was a great. Contribution to very, very important global problems like climate change or land degradation. But it wasn't, uh, we were not coming from that very, very wide, um, purpose. It was just how can we do to make this farming more, um, sustainable.

And I would need to say that in Patagonia, uh, current sheep production is not sustainable. And they are, we have 30 percent of the farms closed, abandoned. So it is a dead or life or death, uh, situation.

Bobby: Hmm.

Pablo: So, um, I was not thinking of the whole world. I was thinking of my place.

Bobby: And then, okay. So then Ricardo Fenton raised his hand and said, yeah, let's, let's try this out on my farm and you guys brought Brian Marshall out. He's an educator from Australia. He's been doing this for decades. He taught

Pablo: Yes.

Bobby: How many, how many people were there at that first training? 

Pablo: Well he came first for Montedinero one year. And the second year, Jose Gortazar from Chile was our partner, and he got some money from the government for a program that allowed us to bring Brian Marshall for two years. And we were planning five farms in Chile, and we added another five farms in Argentina.

So he would come. And I will go with him farm by farm and doing planning and, um, and, and seeing the results. And it was a really a great moment. And we are very grateful to Brian for all the things he taught us. And, uh, so. Uh, at the first time we were not training people. The first training course was done, uh, in 2011 and Brian was a trainer.

We brought him from Australia for the first group. It was 12, 12 educators. Professionals that we trained. Myself included. And in 2013, we did our first training from Ovis 21. So, I started the training in Spanish for the first time in 2013.

Bobby: How was it received in the region? From a cultural perspective from producers in the region, was it easy to share this with folks because they were at a point of desperation like you were saying, 30% of farms had shuttered their doors like you were saying. Were people willing and open for this or did it take an effort to get this in front of people?

Pablo: No, the ironic, the ironic thing is that, uh, yes, we, we had serious trouble to reach the minimum number of attendants to have this training that it was so new and so disruptive that most of the farmers did not believe that this was good. And still they think that way. It is hard for us, even with the evidence at their sites.

Um, to change that is that, uh, this region has gone into, uh, a declining trend that includes, uh, people's awareness or people's interest. So it is it is very complex. It's more for a social study than a technical study. We have the results very consistent. We, we have proved that we can, um, improve every all ecosystem function and we can sequester carbon on Patagonian grasslands, but, uh, people are resistant to change for some reasons that I cannot truly understand, or deeply understand.

Bobby: Well, it's human nature. I think some people, you know, you look at, uh, Everett Rogers and his diffusion of innovation theory, and he's got that U shaped curve and, you know, there's the early adopters, the early innovators, the early majority, the late majority. And then that last 16 percent is the laggards.

Those people that are just never going to come around to whatever it is you're, you're to, to help them understand that can benefit them. So when. You guys started doing holistic management. How, how quick did you start to see results and what were some of the first results that you saw that where you knew, okay, there's something to it.

This is working. 

Pablo: I was going to that farm, uh, since 1990. So I knew it every place of it. And it was amazing. The change in terms of the flowering of the legumes, the grasses growing very vigorously and everything.

The grassland is like, uh, Closing closing the spaces and you see really a vibrant community, and it was it was a very, very, uh, compelling to see that, but at the same time in our first years, we committed several mistakes on the animal performance. So, um, that beginning, I think it was. It was very negative for the, for the growth, for the growth of the holistic management practice because we, we took a long time to fix what was wrong in there.

We spent five years to fix the, the mistakes in terms of we did. Very big bunch of sheep. You can see one of those in the TED talk of Allan.

Bobby: Mm hmm.

Pablo: And, uh, and that was, uh, amazing to see that it was wrong in terms of animal, uh, welfare

Bobby: Let's

Pablo: uh, and it took us some time to fix that since 2013, we haven't, uh, recorded any loss in animal production, but in many people, the memory is those years.

in which we had trouble with, uh, uh, thin animals, low performance, um, in some and some episodes of mortality. So, uh, it affected seriously our reputation over there.

Bobby: you explain a little bit about why animal performance was affected And, you know, what specifically you were trying and, and how that affected animal performance, like just getting into the mechanisms of what was at play. What is it? 

Pablo: Yes. Well, he sheep, sheep is a very selective animal. Uh, you know, as, as, ruminants are smaller, they are more selective. And, uh, in the Patagonian winters are very special. It's not something that you in many places of the world. That's very cold and dry. And, uh, What sheep naturally do is to be very selective on grazing and to reduce their, their, um, activity.

So they don't walk much. They do short days. They, they don't want to move. And we were, and they, they split in small groups. And what we did was to put 17, 000 sheep in one group. Uh, and when they were in that density, they used to eat things that they didn't like to eat. because they were low quality. So they, it's like getting someone that you want to, to lose weight, what you do, increase your activity, increase your exercise and to eat more fiber.

And that's what we did with the sheep. They, they changed their diet for a more fibrous diet and they walked a lot more, let's say 30 percent in terms of energy more. And the result was they lose weight during the winter, and they were too weak at the end of the winter that they couldn't lamb, they couldn't raise a lamb, they would produce less wool, a lot of consequences that, uh, because of a very negative energy bAllance.

When we reduce the area using, let's, let's say, grazing units. or gracing, uh, yeah, modules or cells, um, smaller in area. And we, uh, we did less movements. Then, uh, we got to an equilibrium and now we are happy with that. We have a protocol for Patagonian sheep that we didn't have when we started.

Bobby: Is that something that you find in cattle production as well or with other ruminants or is this something that is specific to sheep?

Pablo: Oh, this is specific to the Patagonian context. You need to be alert in, in, in holistic management. You hardly will find a failure on the grassland side. I don't know one case in 15 years. No, it's a, it's a no, no risk at all in, in not improving what you have, but the reducing, uh, animal performance, it's something that can happen, especially in environments that are restricted.

For example, subtropical grasslands. Subtropical grassland or tropical grasslands that have C4 grasses that reduce a lot the quality in the non growing season. If you're not careful, you may, you may have a big reduction in animal production. Or you have a wrong, uh, a wrong, uh, uh, calving season. So the cows are calving in the worst time of the year.

And, uh, you don't have a match into the grass between the grassland dynamic and the herd dynamic. So if there's a, you need always need, because the business is produced by the cow or the sheep. It's not produced by the grass. You don't sell the grass and the farmer needs to, needs to increase its production to, uh, to reward for that better management.

This is a business. And so. In any case, you need to watch, uh, animal condition, body scores, and, uh, and see what is happening with nutrition and be, uh, be aware and, uh, detect the problems early rather than, than late. And, uh, when you do that, it works perfectly.

Bobby: We jumped kind of straight into some of the issues with, um, you know, learning holistic management and, and, and lessons learned along the way. Um, maybe for our listeners, since this is only, uh, you know, the very beginning of this podcast, um, maybe let's set the stage and actually talk about holistic management.

And. What it is, how it works, what are the underlying principles and key insights, um, about it. Here, I'm a, Hey, Pablo, I've heard that there's this regenerative grazing thing called holistic management. I hear that you're one of the world experts in it. Can you teach me about it?

Pablo: All right. I will try. Uh, yes, of course I can do. Uh, well, I, I, first I would say that holistic management is not, uh, a grazing system or a, or a method, or it is, uh, it is far beyond that. It is a way of, uh, it's kind of a philosophy because it is the way you see things and the way you see things. Defines what you think and what you think defines what you do.

And so what do you see when you're walking across the land and how do you make decisions? This is the first thing of holistic management and, uh, and it deals with, uh, the root cause of many of the problems we have, which is linear thinking or reductionist thinking. We humans, the law of gravity, we tend to think linearly, which means the, the context to make decision is the problem itself.

So you have a problem, you solve the problem and you don't take into account the relationships

Bobby: Okay.

Pablo: and the consequences. And if you are addressing the root cause, so normally we make decisions that address the symptoms instead of the causes of the problems and create new problems. So that, uh, as Allan says, very, very clearly, uh, humans, no matter what is the culture or the, uh, the country of the education level, we tend to make decisions linearly

Bobby: Yeah.

Pablo: It's something you need to learn because, uh, Linear thinking comes with your genes. It's inside,

Bobby: okay. Okay. Yeah.

Pablo: solving problems that are mechanic, uh, not, uh, so that's why we can, we can fly to the moon that we cannot solve, change and we cannot solve hunger or, or, or, or, um, uh, because complex problems require holistic approach, and we tend to do linear thinking. So this is the 1st thing look like a very vague, but I, I can tell you very quickly examples of rural practice that are full of this, um, of this linear thinking, uh, like you have a problem with the weed.

And, uh, the problem is the weed. for making decision is the weed. So the first question is what kills this weed? So you, you go for a, for a good herbicide or kill it with a machine. The, the holistic thinking is why this plant is here. What am I doing that is inviting this plan to come in, uh, try to understand the relationship, the community dynamics, the, the, the, how things are related.

And then change your management first, and then the weed is not a problem anymore. So you have a full of examples, for example, chemical fertilization. It's a, it's an example of linear thinking. Um, there's a lot of them common practice on every day,

But you can make decisions in another way.

Understanding better the things, the complexity of what are you managing and, uh, and trying to work mimicking nature and favoring ecosystem processes, which is a totally different approach, uh, or trying to dominate nature and to go against, uh, what is designed.

So this is the first thing. The second thing is to the different environments you have in in the the planet. Uh, and, uh, some practices are good in in in some places and some practices are not. And, uh, so this is here comes the brittleness scale that Allan proposed, which is, uh, understanding how the carbon cycles in the environment you when you have constant humidity, carbon cycles very fast.

So, um, normally in those places you have forest and you don't have big herbivores in that situation. And as you go to places that get dry for a while, and in the other extreme to places that are permanently dry, except for very small windows, well, carbon cannot recycle unless you have herbivores.

Nature designed to cycle carbon and to keep that carbon pump, so you need to retire the old stuff to allow the new the new stuff to come back. So, uh, so if you understand the degree, you understand once get to the next point, which is understand the role of herbivores.

All the bibliography that I have been reading in the Academy for grasslands was talking about grazing as a disturbance. As the grasslands were there and now we put those herbivores and they're causing disturbance so the idea of that taking care of the grassland was a matter of matter of reducing the herbivores to allow it to grow.

Although I was myself an expert. that moment, when I met the, when I met holistic management and understood that herbivores are an essential part of the, of the carbon cycle and the functioning of the grasslands, you cannot imagine at all healthy grassland without herbivores and predators, uh, are essential. Are they needed? They mutually on the other in the in the sense of I don't know any ecosystem aquatic. Or the soil or, or the grasslands or whatever in which, uh, a Haribo doesn't have predators. So when, when I, when I understood the role of Haribos and the predators and, and I started reading about the plays toine, which I haven't been interested in 40 years, well 30 years, I started looking at the place Toine and say, this grasslands that I am managing spent 400,000 years.

With a lot of herbivores and predators, and those herbivores and predators, most of them are extinct, but they played a role, and who's playing that role now? And that was mind blowing for me to understand that all the grasslands of the world have co evolved with a lot of herbivores and predators, but that in nature, the behavior of those Was very important and it's kind of a rhythm or a dance, you know, herbivores, um, defend themselves against predator by joining by making big herds and, um, should be, have episodes of grazing followed by long, maybe long rest periods. And, uh, when we went and put the fences over there and put the animals year round, we finished with that rhythm and, uh, and started doing something that nature never did that it is to fence animals.

Let them in all the year and, um, so we humans, uh, all most of that fauna is extinct and we humans, the only tool that we have, as Allan says, is our domestic animals to manage the grasslands, uh, to keep them healthy by, um, making this carbon pump function. I, I can explain a little bit about more about the carbon pump.

Bobby: Please do.

Pablo: You know, the, those pumps, water pumps that you see sometimes in the farms, that they have two phases, one, when you, when you, um, move that, um, move the pump, you, you fill an envelopes, uh, with water and then you move and the water goes out. So you have one moment in which you are feeling and one moment in which you are taking the water away.

Well, the carbon cycle in the grasslands, it's like a carbon pump and the carbon pump fills when the animals are away. So the plants, uh, grow their, their, their leaves and their, their stems and they grow their roots and they really populate. Uh, the soil with roots and, and, and, uh, root exudates feeding the, the soil biota.

And it gets to a point in which, uh, it won't, uh, charge anymore. So the pump is filled and to make another cycle, you need to discharge that pump. And that's the role of the herbivore and herbivores. Uh, if you don't take away that material, the pump is not working. You take that with, whenever you have a grazing event, you will reduce the aerial material, but also you will lose some roots and you will stimulate roots exudates.

So every, it's like a big, um, uh, event of. Sending all the, all the, um, the resources, um, back to the soil and you have litter, you have dung, you have urine, you have root exudates, and you have dead roots. So that's a kind of a party below for the soil for the soil biota and, and, um. As yeah, so some some of the microbes that Brian Marshall used to say may have some hungover for such such a party over there, but then you start a new cycle and you put that cycle to work on millennia.

And that's the dark soils that we are cropping now. So Argentina is famous for the pampas and the molly soils, the dark soils that we have there. And that's just the result of that carbon pump working. All the time. And, uh, so, uh, the role of the herbivore is critical. And there's, uh, unthinkable to have healthy grasslands without a vital part like the herbivore and the predator and we are the predator.

We need to understand we, we need to regulate the size of the herd and we need to regulate the movements of the herd. The two roles of a predator need to be done by the humans. Uh, so that's what we do with the holistic plan. Plant grazing in terms of deciding, uh, where to go. How many, how many animals for, for what, uh, how long, uh, how long, uh, what is the recovery period or how long they will be coming back at trying to adjust that carbon pump to function.

Uh, so the final understanding is the concept of overgrazing. Many times I heard that word for all my career, but for a long time, I thought that overgrazing was having too many cows. Or too many sheep, or grazing too closely to the ground. That was my idea of overgrazing. And, um, well, I found out, or I understood now that, uh, that's totally wrong.

Uh, and that this is, uh, uh, one of the key insights that Allan, uh, says the definition of overgrazing that comes from André Wassan. André Wassan was very clever in the 50s and the 60s to define overgrazing as when a plant gets, uh, consumed before it has recovered from the previous defoliation. So when, whenever you go back to a plant that has not recovered and that's, that's critical.

So managing time is the most important thing that you're doing when managing grasslands. And if you understand the concept of oil grazing, you can understand that it's impossible to mitigate overgrazing with continuous grazing. That was what I was trying to do. No way, because if you reduce, uh, stocking rate in continuous grazing, the only thing you are doing is reducing the percentage of plants that have been overgrazed.

Because if you have few amounts of animals, they will not be able to eat all the plants. So probably you have less plants overgrazed. But, um, you will start having overresting, which is plants that haven't been eaten for decades, and they, they can die of overresting. So, there's no solution on continuous grazing.

It took me a lot of time, a lot of think, uh, thought to understand that. But that's the, the fourth key insight. That I would say, grazing is good, but it needs to happen in, in very short episodes with a proper resting after that. And, uh, and you need to plan for that. That doesn't happen, uh, by, uh, uh, improvisation.

You, you're very unlikely to do the things right because managing, uh, a farm, uh, uh, livestock farm has so many complexities that you, You cannot be improvising and going where there is grass, uh, losing all the control of the process. So, uh, after doing holistic plan racing after 15 years, I can't imagine going backwards and, and, and, uh, managing livestock without a plan.

Bobby: You mentioned over-resting a plant and. That's a term I know that is unique to holistic managers and you don't often find in grassland ecology. And so I'm curious, you know, what was that like coming from an agronomy background to hear a concept like this, like had that thought crossed your mind before that like, okay, there's overgrazing on one hand, but you know, the flip side of that coin is under grazing or over resting. What was it like to hear that?

Pablo: Well, you know, when you have a paradigm, all the data that doesn't fit with your paradigm is invisible. So, I visited, say very, um, I, I love to go to grazing exclosures to see what they look like, places that haven't had livestock for a long time. And it’s incredible how your mind can ignore some data.

There was a lot of cases in which the grass was gray and dying. And maybe I see something that was good because I found a brome that is hard to find outside the enclosure. But everything was. After you understand the concept that this is yes, yes, unique. And I think it's Allan's merit to have defined that.

Wow. There's a lot of plants that die from over resting. And, um, our tassel grasses in Patagonia are a clear example. All the grazing exclosures that have more than 20 years in Patagonia are gray oxidized. They, they, they, they're lost their, all the tassels and they have just opportunistic short live plants and a lot of bare ground and, and, and erosion as, as Allan says in the TED talk.

So that. I ignored that concept and when I saw those grasses that were gray and oxidizing, I thought it was a plague, like a bug that was eating the center of the plants. Never thought about over resting, but once, once you get those Tassock grazed. And you see the response. You can have the whole story.

The best Tassock grasses that I've seen in my life are those that received a moderate grazing and had a long rest after that. The greenness and the health of those grasses has no equal. In very long rest, you get at the end great grasses, the carbon pump is filled, nobody is, uh, taking out the old stuff.

So that was a big, a big discovery for me.

Bobby: How do you know when you're out in the field if you're looking at a plant that is overrested?

Pablo: Uh, it's very easy. Healthy plants do not, do not have gray. Pieces, oxidized material. They have, they may have green leaves or they may have yellow leaves that mean that are from the, the, the current or the past growing season. And, and they, uh, they look yellow and they don't look gray. material that stays out, uh, in the field without being consumed for a long time, it gets gray or black.

And, um, and they are, they end up detached from the plant and the plant dies in the center. And you have only the, the, the places that are exposed to light. Those remain green, but it's very easy to see it.

Bobby: And that's how And that's not palatable or provide any nutrition to the wildlife.

Pablo: no, no. I think that Yeah, Tassock in our Patagonian conditions benefit from moderate to light grazing, not going so deep, but, um, uh, but I would say that, um, they need, they require some, some amount of grazing. And, uh, and we have seen that if you want to do that with sheep, you can kill them. So you need larger herbivores like cattle.

To do that work. Horses and cattle instead of sheep. So we need to go into mixed grazing, because otherwise you want the sheep to do a job that they're not prepared to do. Because, because those tassocks are low quality, low quality food. No, no, not high quality. So, so yes, I, I, we have learned a lot on that.

Bobby: So you've, you've basically just given an overview of what is traditionally known as the four key insights of holistic management. The first one being that nature as a complex, adaptive living system functions in wholes as a, as a whole ecosystem where everything is interconnected and in, You know, interdependent on, on other living things in that ecosystem. the second being the brittleness scale, that is the annual distribution of moisture that is available, um, on a landscape, you know? So is there a year round growing season or is there a specific dormant season, uh, followed by a growing season? Um, that affects how you would manage the landscape depending on if you're. One, the, the brittle, you know, brittle meaning that like, if you bring some of that brown, tan, yellow grass in your hand, you crunch it up, it'll, it'll break it's brittle, uh, or non brittle, uh, that's more, you know, year round moisture. Like you would find in a tropical region, it's going to bounce back. It's going to be green. The third key insight, the predator prey relationship, you know, that speaks to the behavior and the dynamics of animals when they're together. Um, then the fourth one, that overgrazing is not a function of number of animals on a landscape. But rather overgrazing is a function of timing. Um, and you know, you rightly gave credit to André Voisin, who is the, the French agronomist that Allan Savory credits for, for inspiring a lot of the, you know, uh, of this work. Um, Allan also, uh, credits Jan Smuts, who, um, you know, is a South African who wrote a book, uh, Holism and Evolution. And I guess that kind of ties back into that first, uh, key insight. of nature functioning in holes. Okay. So

Pablo: Perfect. Summary.

Bobby: I'm trying to, I'm trying to be a stand in to, to do what I can and, and ask the dumb questions when necessary or provide synopses when, when they can be helpful for the listener.

Pablo: Okay.

Bobby: Um, all right. So that's the key insights. What would you say is the next important piece to understand about holistic management?

Pablo: Well, I think that, um, holistic management, then when you get into practice, I think the first thing is, is a holistic context. Clearly, you need to have a, uh, define what do you want and what is important and what is the quality of life that you want. That is first thing. No, with no, no context, no holistic management.

Uh, so, um, we, after these years of experience, I can tell who has a really a good context defined or who has not. The context is, is a document is a very simple document in which all decision makers in a, in a, in a whole. Uh, define what it is important in terms of the business, in terms of the social of relationships and in terms of the of the environment that they are managing.

And define which is the future resource base, and that definition is critical, especially for, uh, family farms in which, um, several people involved and, uh, well, big companies. So there is a, uh, a lot of things that can be, um, fixed when you have a clear context. And, uh, this is the first thing I would say.

And in our network, we have today more than 200 farms working with us and not all of them have a holistic context and, uh, some of them have a, what I would say, a failed holistic context is which you did it, but you don't didn't mean it. So it's, um, that holistic context is useless, uh, but those people that have created a holistic context by deep reflection and meaning, and they commit to it, they are the best performers.

They do well and they are, they are enjoying the most important thing is they're enjoying the trip. They are, they are, they have a, um, fulfilling lifestyles in, in because they have a purpose. They know why they are in the farm and, and, uh, and they feel proud about. The things they are doing. And the other thing is the, the youngsters want to go to the farm.

They, they, they want to be rural with a purpose. So this is the most important thing. And, um, if you take it as a bureaucratic thing, uh, it doesn't, doesn't make any difference. If it's a really meaningful, sincere, it can help a lot and it will create Um, an environment of, uh, abundance, uh, because everything starts to flow.

And, uh, you know, in, in, uh, in holistic management in, in the farm. People is the most complicated part. And, uh, if you don't have right, you're not right with the people, you, uh, you're not in a good position to, to succeed. So to have people aligned, you need to have the proper context.

Bobby: Can you speak a little more to how defining a holistic context allows someone to better manage their land and livestock because, you know, so holistic context, I like to think of it as. guiding north star, you know, it's defining what it is you want in life. What do you want your quality of life to be like? What do you want the surrounding environment that supports you to be like? What, what does everything look like long into the future? And then, you know, what does your behavior have to be to get there? Like, why is it important? I mean, you know, I think some people, many people, Write that part off. You know, they want to skip right over it.

That sounds a little woo woo. Who cares? I want to get down to brass tacks. Tell me how to bunch my animals and move them and get the highest performance out of my animals in my landscape and let me make the most money. Why do, why would someone need to start with talking about quality of life and, and behaviors?

Pablo: Well, it's, uh, because many people are enthusiastic, but they are not consistent in the way they make decisions. So they, they may do one step, one direction, two steps backwards. And, uh, and they don't. They make decisions individually and reductionist. So even if you you're a rock star moving your cows, you may be very bad managing people, your own family or managing your business.

So it is, uh, yes, I think that the performance in the decision making changes. And, um, I've seen a lot of people that did good on the, on the grassland side, but they, they cannot solve some dramatic problems, social issues, or, uh, business issues because they are not And, um, so I'd say I would say this is the place to start with.

Of course, we work with all the farmers that want to work with us. And some of them do not grab this concept and they don't see it.

Bobby: Okay.

Pablo: maybe it's a moderation process. And then we, we could get to that point.

Later on, if you if you don't work with them, you don't have the chance of a good conversation after achieving some things that are more close to the things he wants. So, but I would say this, the other problem is that if you don't have a context, it's very hard to apply the planning procedures. If you don't, if you don't have a context, make making decisions about grazing or about pasture production, or making decisions about finance or, or, or, or the land, the land, the landscape, it's very hard.

So, uh, I think that it's, uh, the beautiful thing about holistic management is that racing plan, land plan and finance plan, they, uh, communicate and they, uh, boost. One to the other. So A lot of qualities lost when you just take a piece of it, It is holistic when you take the whole thing.

And, uh, and when I've seen, uh, outstanding examples of land plans. And, um, and, uh, a few sadly, few,

Bobby: Okay.

Pablo: you see the value of it. It is such a valuable, a valuable thing. If you take pieces, you may benefit from the pieces, but you, you never reach.

The total value of the proposal that, uh, that Allan and all the people that work with him and have elaborate.

Bobby: Well, we're about an hour in, I know listeners of podcasts, they're probably saying, when are we going to talk about the actual grazing planning? That's, I thought that's what you did at savory. I thought that's what the. This was all about. Um, I think what you're showing us is that there's a lot more to it than just planned grazing. Um, but that is a very important component of it. So why don't we dive in a little bit to holistic planned grazing? What is it and how does it differ from say other grazing that are out there?

Pablo: All right. Well, I love this question. Uh, holistic planned grazing in the first, first difference is that it's a structured procedure. So, uh, you go step by step using an aide memoir. And it has a brilliant creation, which is the, the, the, the grazing chart, which allows you to work with the people of the farm, with a cowboy, with a gaucho.

In the table without any technology barrier and you work on the on. You can see seven months from now the next seven months day by day where the animals are going to be. So you get a visual conscience of your decisions. But what are you going to do?

And all the things that I know, all the other systems that I know are either schematic, or say, stay around continuous grazing, or they have a rotation that they move schematically from this paddock to the other for no reason, or they go to the paddock that has more grass, uh, so in a, in a very chaotic movement in which you go to the, to the paddock that is ready. And you don't have control at all of the recovery periods.

From those systems, um, I don't see value on them, and I've seen a lot of, uh, non optimal results. What we do in the holistic planned grazing is to follow that aide memoir. And you take, you manage the complexity by, uh, treating problems one by one. So you can focus on one aspect and then make a decision and that decision will influence the next step.

So you create a plan twice a year, very simple. And it's a day in which the team gathers. has a chance to talk and to learn. So it's a big learning experience. And the, the, the important thing is that the people that take care of the livestock have the chance to say what has gone good, what was not very good.

So they get involved deeply in the planning. So they own the plan. And that, that helps a lot to organize teams in the, at the farm level. And also the decision making becomes transparent. Why are the animals in that place that moment? Because of this, we talked that in this planning session and basically you put there together from social aspect, like when are we going to be in holidays or when do not, we don't not want to be moving animals with the calendar of the health program, with all the events that will be there and which are the paddocks that we shouldn't be there for any reason, which are the paddocks that require special attention. So a complexity that no one from top of his head could manage. No way. And at the end of the process, you do, to get to critical points in the growing season, the critical decision is to decide which will be the recovery periods.

This is the distance in time between grazings. How much time do we need if we take the animals out today? When should they come again? That's a critical issue. Number one in a, in a growing season plan. And when it, the growing season ends and we are getting into the non growing season, uh, one of the critical points is, uh, do we have enough forage for these animals?

So we, that's why we use EOV. short term monitoring to estimate how much forage do we have and to match that with the demand of the animals. And really, if we don't have enough forage, make decisions early. And if we have a surplus of forage, well, we may decide to take it, uh, to take it with more animals and, uh, to increase the business or we decide, no, I will leave it for the land.

I don't know. So. You, you know, you have some objective definition of what is your position before the non growing season. And that will allow you to make better decisions in terms of stocking rate and the sequence of grazings during the winter. So, the non growing season and the growing season to two plants in a year.

And the most profitable day in your days in your calendar one day to talk as a team and to think how to produce more grass or how to use it better and how to regenerate the land with such a very small effort. Uh, we have seen, uh, thousands of hectares, uh, improve and, um, increasing the stocking rates. Uh, we have, uh, increases talking rates in.

Almost all the farms we have worked with, uh, very easily with no inputs, no, no cost, only those two days in which you sit as a team and talk,

Bobby: You're talking about recovery periods and the importance of those specifically in the growing season. why is it important for A grazing plan to be centered around recovery periods in comparison to any of the other number of variables that are at play in an operation. for your attention. 

Pablo: , optimizing recovery periods is the way to increase your regeneration rate and, and the impact of the, of the, of the process. For example, in Corrientes in Northeastern Argentina. In your spring, uh, we use two recovery periods for the growing season. If you use, uh, 45 days and, and in the spring and 90 days in the summer, uh, it would have a quite different result from, uh, let's say 60 days and 120.

And it's a small, if you see, it's a small difference. You need to think about maximizing, uh, the production of forage and the community dynamics. And, uh, and those things are not synonymous. Because sometimes you have a very low diversity grassland that could be managed for, uh, a key species or one species that requires, let's say a lucerne or a falfa, uh, you need, the falfa is ready every 30 days.

Okay. Um, if you manage just for a species, you will have only a species, one species. If you manage for diversity. You won't adjust your time just for alfalfa, you, you will adjust your time for alfalfa and something else. So you need to ask something else. What does it need to be there in the grassland? So we, it's a more complex decision, but, um, it clearly is related with, uh, with community dynamics and with carbon sequestration and with energy flow.

And also, also with forage quality in the sense of, um, if you go too slow, you may lose some species and you will definitely lose quality of forage, but you may get a big bulk of forage. And if you go too fast, you are overgrazing in a, in an organized way. So it's still overgrazing, but instead of being random overgrazing in a continuous system.

Now you are overgrazing very neatly and you come every 30 days or on a grassland that needs 60 days. You're overgrazing that, um, uh, in a more fashionable way. Uh, if you go too fast, you get High quality, maybe high animal performance that you will reduce the amount of forage that you will have for the next winter or the next non growing season because the bulk of forage that you can create on a growing season plan will depend on recovery period.

If you don't have a long recovery period before the winter, you will get to the winter with a small amount of forage. That will reduce your overall stocking rate. So it's critical. And we, as we have the obsession to measure, we have a lot of data about that. And so we are quite confident at this moment that for every region, you need X amount of time, we will still learning.

We are still, um, challenging our, our, our ideas. But for example, in Patagonia, we cannot go back to a place during the growing season. So recovery period is 180 days. which is one grazing event per plant and, uh, and in some places in tropical pastures, you may go four times to each paddock during the growing season.

And, uh, that is the most, uh, most delicate part of the art of this. 

But of course, if you don't measure you, you cannot realize if you're going right or wrong. 

Bobby: What sort of things are you if you're, you know, uh, out walking a pasture, uh, looking at forage, um, trying to decide if you need to adapt your grazing plan at all, what specific things are you looking at and, and how would they influence necessitate a change in your grazing plan?

Pablo: if you, , if something is wrong, the animals will have a, Abnormal behavior because they want to move out. So you will see. And the other thing is the residue. If you don't have you don't have forage left. We don't manage for residues. But low residues tell us something about what's happening.

So behavior of the animals. And, um, and residue will be the main things that will tell you that something's wrong.

Bobby: Are there any, are there any common themes you find on folks that are successful, holistic managers, those that pick it up quickly and really succeed with it? And then in contrast to that, are there any commonalities for those who might struggle with it? 

Pablo: probably those that grab the concept and follow it without too much, uh, consideration and those that finally thrive.

Those that are not sure and they remain attached to old stuff. Um, they cannot leave away or they have, uh, consultants or advisors that tells them the opposite that what we told, uh, that's, that's happening in many cases too, that the farm had, uh, uh, an advisor and the advisor is old school and we come with all these new ideas and he says, are you crazy?

 And they don't know what to do. Those are the one that more likely would.

Uh, I would say that those that start and see the results, they, they don't go back in general terms, but the, the ones that leave in general, they are. bigger farms in which there is a manager, but the owner lives in another place and the manager feels a little bit invaded. Or there is an advisor in which you are creating noise In the decision in the mid level of decision making, that could be a case,

but fortunately, most of the people stay and keep doing the work and those that thrive. I would say those that they don't grab pieces. They grab the whole thing.

Bobby: Is there advice that you would give to someone who's just getting started out? 

Pablo: If someone is Yeah. Worried about risk. The riskiest thing to do in this moment of the livestock industry is keep business as usual. That's the riskiest thing that you can do. So I think

changing the way you, you produce, the way, the way you farm is always a risk. And, uh, you can reduce the risk by, uh, yeah, working with, uh, other farmers and working with, uh, uh, accredited professionals from the Savory Institute. So there is, there are some resources that can help you to minimize the risk. And, um, and now there are some incentives coming in like, um, Environmental services.

So, uh, I would I would say that I wouldn't lose more time. I think that we are just about in time to change a little bit later. My opinion, but, uh, we are about in time to change and the benefits are so clear and, um, and, uh, the future of livestock industry is so dependent of doing this change quick and I cannot imagine someone in 10 years ahead in 2035 trying to sell beef that has 30 kilograms of CO2 per kilogram of meat of footprint.

I cannot imagine that situation. I think that we'll be out of business. We'll be Impossible to sell. That's my personal opinion. And you can, we can be part of the solution. Regenerative grazing. We have measured that we can sequester carbon and we can have meat that has negative footprint. No.

Other protein for human consumption for those that are popular can say that, let's say, uh, you can have fake burgers. They still have four kilograms of, uh, CO2 footprint per kilogram of hamburger. And you may have, uh, a Patagonian lamb could have 700 kilograms of CO2 sequester per kilogram of burger.

So, uh, so regenerative livestock is, it's a great solution for the farmer in terms of the business, but a great solution for climate change mitigation and the safest place to be in one decade because when, when we get to two, two degrees increase of temperature, um, I think all, All the rules of the game will change and so we're procrastinating and we, we are, we are just seeing what happens, but, uh, there are, um, yeah, there's still people that negationist about climate change.

Um, it's sad, but, uh, That's, that's real, but I think that there will be a big, a big emergency and crisis in 10 years, we will achieve 450 ppm of CO2 in the air, the planet will increase 2 degrees, now we are 1. 2, 1. 3. And I wanna, in some cases, 1.5. And, uh, and I think that as the pan, as the pandemic changed the world for almost two years, uh, I think the, the crisis of the climate change and land degradation will, will affect for a longer time.

Uh, are, are, are, are the way we live, the way we produce, and the basis of the economy. So. Not to being, I don't want to be too, uh, catastrophic, but, uh, I think that, uh, humanity is, is a ship, uh, that is going to, to hit that iceberg. And, uh, and we have, we are seeing the iceberg and the iceberg is visible and, uh, we have some time to change the, to change the, the way we do things.

So that's my hope

Bobby: Well, and climate change aside, knowing how of a conversation that can be, uh, depending who you're talking to, um, the potential for regenerating grasslands through improved management provides. many co benefits beyond just the carbon sequestration. I mean, you're healthier animals, improving wildlife habitat, improving water cycles, which helps in the face of drought, or, uh, flooding, or wildfires, nutrient dense food, utilization of natural fibers instead of petroleum based fibers that are so dominant. Um, in the, the textile industries, like all of these pieces that, that come along with holistic management. Um, yeah, it, it brings a lot of hope for the 

Pablo: is, of course. Yes, of course. And, uh, I think even if climate change was, uh, was not real, it will be for all the reasons that you have mentioned, it will be worthwhile to do this. So we don't need to believe in climate change to be, um, very happy to do all these changes and, uh, and, uh, to, to produce all these outcomes that are so relevant. 

Bobby: as we've talked about holistic management and holistic plan grazing, you know, I didn't hear anything from you. That was. drastically different from the way that people are used to managing. I mean, like these are simple changes that can be made and it's not necessarily more labor intensive. I'd say it's more intellectually intensive. You got to think more about what you're doing, um, and be proactive. Um, but these are changes that can be made. And, you know, I think you're a, A prime example of, of how much impact can be had across a region. I mean, the sheer volume of, of hectares and farms and people that you've trained, you know, not just in Argentina, but all around the world is just, um, impressive.

And, I, I want to thank you for all the work that you've been doing to help. this and spread this far and wide. , we are, uh, are grateful for it. And, you know, I guess, from savory Institute, we are grateful, just knowing that there are people that are trying to do good things in the world and make it. As livable planet for future generations. 

Pablo: Thank you, Bobby. Here we have a big team of more than 100 professionals working at this moment. So this figures that you are mentioned that, uh, that well, we are happy with them, but that's the result of a, of a, of a very committed, um, purposeful team. 

Bobby: Well, any last words, Pablo, before I let you go, you want our audience to know, or just nuggets of wisdom or life advice that you want to pass along.

Pablo: We started talking about the need of addressing, in my case, I didn't want to change the world. I wanted to save Patagonia from desertification. My perspective is that we're losing the battle.

We have, uh, a bunch of farmers, those, uh, innovative farmers that are doing the job and they are showing the way. But, we don't have in our community a sense of urgency of the changes and, as I go out of my, my beloved Patagonia, I see the same. And so my message is that if you don't, we don't put time on this process as a variable and we will still be dealing with land degradation.

Rural poverty, low production and unhealthy food and all the things that the opposite of the things that you have mentioned. So my, my message is this is great. Don't lose it and don't waste your time. Uh, this is something that is ready, is available. There is a whole network in the world wishing to provide help.

And the transition is something very achievable. Anyone can do it. There's no barrier in terms of size of the of the farmer or education. Everyone can do it. And as as you do it, you find a new meaning and a new reason and on a different sense of rural life. And, uh, and I put All my hope in the, in this process and the, in the speed of the process.

Bobby: Wonderful. Well, Pablo, thank you so much for joining today for going deep on Holistic Management.

Pablo: Thank you, Bobby.

Bobby: I appreciate it, sir. Have a good one.

Outro: This episode was edited by Claire Everson and her theme music was composed and performed by Travis McNamara. Ruminations is a production of the Savory Institute, the Savory Foundation, and Land to Market. If you like this episode, please consider leaving us a five star review on Apple Podcast and subscribing to our YouTube channel where you can find video versions of all episodes plus other content.

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