Bison Ranching with No Land, No Animals, and No Money

Bobby: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Ruminations. I'm your host, Bobby Gill. It's been a while since we've seen each other. It's probably been a month or so, so I apologize for that. I know when we kickstarted this podcast, uh, earlier this year, we were dropping episodes every week. Um, you know, since then things have gotten busy.

There's a lot going on. And so I think what we're gonna move to here is instead of dropping new episodes of ruminations on a, um, a known schedule. We're gonna drop them as they become available. Um, I think that. Workflow is going to work better. Just, you know, as the small team we have over here at the Savory Institute, um, it's gonna work better with my personal schedule.

Um, you know, just a, a little bit of insider baseball. Me and my family are moving overseas. We're actually moving to Spain next month, so there's a lot going on, uh, in that regard. Um, but just in terms of if you've been watching the, the podcast link and wondering when new episodes were gonna come out.

Let's throw away the idea that these are gonna be published on any sort of known schedule. Um, they'll drop as I'm able to record them. Uh, sometimes that will be very frequently if I'm able to line up guests and get things produced. Other times they may be a little more spread out, but that's okay. It's the ebbs and flows of the work schedule and, and real life, which is honestly what we're all.

Doing here is trying to manage complexity and figure out how we can get better at doing it and doing so in a way that better suits, uh, the context of what we're trying to accomplish. So that's a little administrative stuff that I wanted to, to kick things off with today. Um, one of the things that we've actually been very busy with lately is, I don't know if you saw, but the man himself, Allan Savory, just had his 90th.

Birthday the other day. So, um, by the time this episode drops, I think Allan's birthday will have just been a few days prior. Um, we've got a big birthday campaign for Allan, so go check it out. Uh, go to Savory global slash 90, um, and see all the different ways that you can, uh, celebrate. Allan on his 90th birthday.

Um, you know, we have launched the new Allan Savory Scholarship Fund. Well, we are starting to fundraise for the new Allan Savory Scholarship Fund, which will allow holistic management, uh, to become more accessible to people all around the world, no matter their background or, um, access to resources. So that's something that we're gonna be launching next year in 2026, but we're starting to raise the funds now, and so what we're hoping.

To do is that, you know, if folks come forward, Allan's 90th birthday, this man has been such a legend in the space of regenerative agriculture and the lives and landscapes. He has changed through his insights over the decades, and so if you've been touched by Allan's work in. Anyway, um, there's a variety of different ways that you can say happy Birthday to Allan on this milestone occasion.

Um, you know, head on over to our social media and, you know, leave us a story of how your life has been changed or new insights that you've gleaned from Allan's work. Um, or if you want to donate $90 in support of Allan's 90th. Birthday, uh, we'll put half of that directly towards the new Allan Savory Scholarship fund.

The rest will go towards the ongoing work that we do at Savory Institute, spreading holistic management around the world. Anyways, there's a variety of different things. Check out our social media feed for the latest there. Um, but let's get to today's guest. Today's guest is my good friend and longtime colleague Sarah Murphy of Murphy Legacy Bison.

Sarah is a first generation bison rancher. She has about, she runs a cow-calf bison operation just outside of Durango, Colorado, in the southwest corner of the state. Against the beautiful backdrop of the San Juan Mountains on 900 acres. It is a beautiful ranch. It is a gorgeous part of the country. Um, and Sarah also happens to be the former director of marketing at Savory.

So she's actually my predecessor. Uh, I stole this job from her one day. Uh, she'll, she happily gave it up. I'll, I'll give her that much. So, uh, anyways, Sarah. Is a first generation rancher. She used to be, uh, steeped in marketing and pr. She comes from a background where she was the director of marketing at Whole Foods Markets.

Then she joined the Savory team while she was at Savory. She was the director of marketing here. She worked on our EOV program. She worked in our LAN to market program. These days, she is focusing most of her attention on her ranch. Outside of Durango, um, raising her animals out there. She also has a meat brand, Murphy Legacy Bison that I mentioned, and she's been growing that.

Um, she's also involved in a variety of different pieces that are still ongoing. Um, you know, some things that, uh, she's got involved with at the Savory Institute when she was a, a full-time staff member here. Uh, things like, um, some. Bison reintroduction projects with some of the indigenous tribes here in the US and so she's kind of the contact point on those and been managing those pieces, which we discuss a little bit about in this episode.

But you know, we discuss what it's like for her as a first generation rancher and how she kind of went from. Whole foods to bison, rancher, um, the importance of mentorship and how meaningful that's been in her personal journey. We talk about her love for bison, where that came from, and then get into some aspects about the bison industry on the whole, and specifically grass fed bison.

We talk about creative financing, uh, which is, you know, some of the moves that she made in terms of getting started with buying her first animals and some of the lessons learned along the way. Um, we talked about the, the tribal projects. Um, and then another piece that's really interesting and a, and a really cool perspective that I think folks are gonna enjoy is.

Sarah is an incredibly avid outdoorsman. She is a former river rafting guide. She is a huge mountain biker. She's a back country skier. You know, if there is any form of outdoor recreation, Sarah likely is doing it on any given day. Um, if you. Can't find Sarah at the ranch. Chances are she's out there doing something epic out in the mountains.

And so she has a really interesting perspective on the outdoor industry and some of the perspectives that the industry has as it relates to agriculture and where there might be some inconsistencies and some room for evolution, I think in some of the narratives that are dominant, um, in, uh, you know, with outdoor advocates, that's all to say.

It's a wide ranging conversation. Um, Sarah is a good friend, so this is more of just us shooting the shit if I'm being real, but I know that everyone will enjoy this conversation, so I'm gonna leave it at that. I know this has been a long intro, so here it is, my interview with Sarah Murphy.

Sarah: And um, so yeah, he ate like elephant's head flour, rubbed arn on his third eye, and from now on he can, it glows for him.

Bobby: I wonder if that last sentence is what we start the podcast on and we give

Sarah: Yeah.

Bobby: of what that means,

Sarah: Yeah.

Just like,

Bobby: We're gonna leave y'all hanging. You're

idea what we're talking about.

Sarah: yeah,

cool. But you wish you knew anyway.

Um, okay. For real. Yeah. Here we are.

Bobby: we are. All right. Sarah Murphy. Welcome to the podcast. Good to see you, my friend. Um, I'm noticing beautiful background of some beautiful mountains. There's a tree that was blowing with the wind, uh, just a minute ago. Give us an introduction to where you are. Like paint a picture of your ranch

where you're located and what's going on there.

Sarah: I am on, I love this exercise. Actually. I don't know if you remember one time Abby asked us all to tell the group where we were from. Yeah. Without using the name, just describing.

That's always stuck with me, but So

Bobby: Yeah. This is an eco-duction where you're

Sarah: Duction. Oh,

I love

it. Ah, yeah. I am sitting on the Colorado Plateau. It's technically my eco region, uh, right where the High desert meets the Southern San Juan Mountains. Uh, specifically the La Platas, uh, which are the southern most tip of the San Juan Mountains. So at about 7,500 feet in elevation, um, where there is a. Opinion Juniper forest. There are tall ponderosas. Um, and then also this short grass prairie sagebrush scrub oak. Um, all around the property it's about 900 acres. And, um, yeah, it's just in that real sweet spot where those high mountains meet the high desert. So, uh, really interesting and beautiful place to live.

And right now it's just perfect. You know, the light and the temperatures are just cool in the morning, but still warm during the day. Um, yeah, and I run about a hundred animals on here, about 50 pear, uh, mostly cow calf operation, although I do call animals out of this herd for a meat company that I own.

Murphy Legacy Bison. Uh, yeah, so I'm in, in that southwest region of the state of Colorado.

Bobby: Just outside of Durango, which is a

Sarah: Just outside Durango.

Bobby: is down in that neck of the woods, there's some really great holistic management happening there. You can go visit Murphy Legacy Bison with Sarah out in Hesperus, or the James Ranch, which are longtime holistic managers and friends of the Savory Institute.

They're there in Durango. Beautiful valley, uh, just a gorgeous, gorgeous corner of the country. So how did you luck out and find yourself in this position, like this has

journey for you to arrive where you are today. I know you've covered this in other podcasts, so we don't have to get into the nitty gritty details of exactly everything that happened, but can you give us like the CliffNotes of, you know, where you started and how you got to where you are today?

Sarah: Yeah. Um, gosh, you know, people, people often ask me that question of. You know, either why bison or how did this happen? And, um, you know, the reality is, is just for people who are not familiar with sort of the origin story or the background, I did not come from ranching or agriculture at all. Grew up in a, you know, suburb of Colorado Springs, but did deeply love, uh, nature of the outdoor industry.

Skiing was an athlete and still am an athlete, I guess, but different level maybe now. Um, and I was working in marketing and PR for most of my, uh, career before this, um, and had a lot of. How do I get from sitting in this office, like as a director of marketing for Whole Foods to being a bison rancher with no cash, capital, no experience, uh, no animals, no land, um, and how would that ever be possible?

Um, and so, you know, I just, whatever you, you know, wanna call it, I kind of just left it up to a higher power, the universe and manifesting. And I literally talked about it constantly to everyone I know, just hunted ranches, cold called producers to go and show up and just learn what I could, you know, anybody who asked, I would tell that one day I was going to raise bison.

Um, and long story short, is that an a number of opportunities people, uh, and support just. Emerged, um, you know, I really, and I said yes, and then I pursued, you know, so it wasn't just a, um, just a sitting there letting it happen for sure. But I was able to go work for the Savory Institute, which is how I learned how to manage land and livestock.

I met a woman, Mimi Hillenbrand, through the Savory Institute, who really was instrumental in getting me started at all. Um,

My first animals just weren't realistic for my financial situation, really meaning that like I, there wasn't a way for me to immediately start paying back the loan.

I couldn't do that. And then for certain loans with the Farm Service agency, there's requirements, like you live on the land 80% of the time, et cetera. So I found a personal investor to help me get started to buy the animals. Um, Mimi. And her team, uh, allowed me to run my first 15 pregnant animals with the 777 bison herd. And I started selling bull caps, keeping heifer casts growing the herd. you know, the 777 Mimi and her team, in my opinion, have have been and are the gold standard in bison management and holistic management. And so getting to have them as a resource was one of the greatest gifts. And just not even resource, just mentors, um, and allies.

So horribly grateful there. And then, yeah. But um, I ended up coming back to Durango in 2019 and started hunting for land. And if anybody knows anything about this area, it is not the easiest place to find large land or land period. Um, and so if we can talk more about that journey at some point or on a, on a different podcast, but the long story short is I. Eventually met a family who was no longer ranching, but they had a family ranch still built a relationship with them and was able to move on to this ranch and have a 10 year lease, um, right of first refusal, and just the ability to really build it over the next decade as my own. Um, and so I brought my herd from the 777 here, the meat company.

Um, yeah. And the rest is history.

Bobby: Well, I can attest to the fact that, uh, you know, back before you had animals and back before you had land,

you were incessantly talking about bison all of the time. You know, uh, we've worked together for, for many years. You were actually my predecessor, you know, you were the director of marketing at Savory before I gladly stole that job from you when we were kind of shaking up the organizational structure, uh, at Savory.

Um.

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Bobby: Let's, you touched on a few pieces right there that I want to hone in on. Um, I want to hone in on the 777 and the mentorship you got from Mimi. I wanna talk about land access for first, first generation ranchers, because that's such a huge issue that people face. Um, but let's just start with the basics.

Why bison? What is it about bison that drew you to them?

Sarah: Well, when I was first thinking that I did not want to work in, I wasn't meant to or designed to work in an office from nine to five, Monday through Friday for the rest of my life, um, I really felt the desire to work outside with land and animals. Um, and I will say that I don't think I've always been, I was a swimmer in college. I've always been an avid skier, mountain biker. I was a raft guide. And I really think the jump from loving the outdoors and being so ingrained in the outdoor industry to ranching, to being a steward of land and the outdoors and animals is actually not a very far jump. Um, in my mind. People who go from being, you know, guides or outdoor industry people to, you know, office jobs is actually a bigger leap, right?

It's a change in just even physically using your body, et cetera. So actually, you know, this I don't, looking back, for me it made perfect sense to go from being this raft guide, you know, outdoor loving athlete to rancher. Um. And so I started poking around as, as a lot of young girls, I had this love of horses.

I thought maybe I'd raise horses. And it turns out that, um, it's not quite the same economy economics working out with like back in the day where you could round up brumbies and like sell 'em to the army. And turns out those days had passed. um, said to me, what about bison? And uh, I thought that was crazy. Uh, I thought that is wild. I have no experience with livestock, let alone, you know, 2000 plus pound animals. However, I joined the National Bison Association, um, and then I went and visited my first ranch. My, I started working animals. I always say to people, if you have any interest in bison, you need to see how they behave

when they are in

a fight or flight situation. When you have to actually bring them in, sort them, load them, or work them in

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: because they're totally different when they come under that sort of,

pressure than when they're just you know, chewing their cut out in the pasture, enjoying their

Bobby: Yeah.

Sarah: Um, it wasn't a very romantic introdu, you know, as far as like working animals, as working bison specifically is, is pretty rough.

And I was actually, um. Walden, Colorado. Worked animals all day. I was tired. I was cold. I was kind of like, you know, stressed, depressed from, though everything is done you know, low stress as possible.

but I just knew like these animals, for me, there was just some sort of connection that, um,

Bobby: there's a piece that I'm

wondering if there's a connection. So like, as an active outdoorsman with everything that you do, um, in the outdoors industry, people always talk about type two fun, you know? It sucks when you're doing it and you are miserable, but you look back and you're like, man, that was an amazing experience.

I'm so glad I did that. You know, whether you're, um, you know, on a super long bike ride or you've just summited a mountain or whatever it is. That's type two fun. Type one fun is when you're having fun the whole time. Type two fun sucks when you're doing it. Is managing bison type two fun for you?

Sarah: Politely.

Bobby: What was that? I missed it. Your mic cut out for a second. What'd you say?

Sarah: Oh, I'm sorry. I said I think you're politely calling me a masochist.

Bobby: Are you, I mean, is that, is that the case?

Sarah: I mean, there's probably, I mean, if we really, we should, we should

have invited, um, psychologist on here to join us. 'cause that could have been really interesting. But, um, you know, there is a, there is a component that, I mean, I was a distance swimmer. I swam the mile, which anyone familiar with swimming? That's 66 lengths of the pool,

Bobby: It's a lot.

Sarah: A lot

of discomfort for an extended period of time. I've always been a distance sort of person. There is a lot of hard, I do thrive in jobs and work where there is friction mentally or physically, you know, where it's like it's gonna require solving or creativity or even just physical work.

So I do thrive in that. Um, so there's probably a component there. You know, with bison, I always tell people they're really easy when they're easy and they're really hard when they're hard. And there's something about that that I actually really respect. I think they have been an incredible teacher of, it's so easy with our technology in this day and age to think that we can force nature. You

know, we do it in

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: production. you know, have synthetic things that

increase production,

increase size, increase speed, increase, whatever that we can, you know, we've come up with all these technology and solutions to make things happen in biology or in nature that wouldn't necessarily happen as fast or as Um, and lots of times through our detriment, you know, and there's a, there's a natural process and a natural rhythm. I dunno if you've ever heard the quote that nature never rushes, but it's never late.

Bobby: Hmm

Sarah: so that kind of

idea of bison are such, working with bison and with the with the species of bison is such an incredible reminder I'm actually not in control that I cannot

force nature.

Bobby: mm-hmm.

Sarah: gone out, like anytime I've been in a rush and I just really need to get something done

and it requires working with the animals,

it is a guarantee that things are gonna go poorly. It's like they can feel my energy as soon as I walk out there that. I'm in a rush

Bobby: They, They, know.

They know when there's really good

pow that you're trying to get some fresh tracks on, and they're like, nah,

Sarah: Yeah.

Bobby: that's not happening today.

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I wasn't even thinking that. I was even just thinking like there's been times where I'm going on, you know, like I'm traveling for whatever reason, savory work, fun, whatever, and I'm like, I'd really like to whatever, move them here or catch this animal to be able to look at this or whatever, and it requires them to

to work with

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And now I'm

just like, Nope. I'm feeling too rushed for time before I leave. I'm just gonna wait till I get back.

Because the guarantee is if I go out there and I think to myself, I have to get this done. They have to do this.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: guarantee it doesn't happen.

Bobby: Yeah. If you, if you look back to, you know, your, your eagerness to get involved with bison way back in the day before you ever had animals, to where you are now, where you've got a ranch, you've got animals, you've got a meat brand, you've got years of experience and mentorship with the gold standard Bison Ranch out there.

How has your perspective on bison changed over the years? Like,

what do you wish you had known back then about bison or, or the industry, um, that you know now, you know, with, with some years of experience under your belt?

Sarah: Uh, well, to answer the, to answer the first question about what do I wish I would've known? I would say nothing. was great that I was just going in passionate and blind,

Bobby: Would that have changed things if like, are.

Sarah: of kidding. I'm sort of kidding, but not sort of kidding, you know what I mean? Like, I remember when the, um, this old, this, uh, the, the owner of the ranch that I was talking to, uh, he looked at me, he's a, he'd ranched for years, lot of leadership in the Cattleman's Association, PhD in biology, an amazing, wise, man.

And he looked at me and he said, do you know how much work this is gonna be? And I looked at him and I said, Nope. 'cause I've never done it before, but I'm willing to give it a shot. And, you know, there was, part of that was, that was like, it was probably good that I didn't realize quite how much, how sharp the learning curve was gonna

be

Bobby: Hmm.

Sarah: some things.

And that's okay.

Bobby: Yeah. What are, what are some of the things that had the sharp learning curve to just give some color to.

Sarah: things about, fencing, certain things about, you know, just like cost or time that things take or, um, you know, just the amount of humility that was required to be like, I don't know how to do that. Um, but I'm willing to learn, you know, as a, at that time, mid 30-year-old woman being like Greg, everything from not even knowing how to drive a tractor in the beginning to how to fill out a cut sheet for the butcher.

I mean, what I did, what I had learned from Savory Institute was grazing, planning, holistic management, the relationship between ruminant animals, predator prey, how to read the land ecosystem processes, which was an incredible foundation. 777 had also offered that, but also how to read the bison themselves, the language, the resources I had as far as, um. in my opinion, is one of the best bison vets in the country who I met through the seven, seven. So this incredible bison, bison species, specifically managing holistically resource that I had in the 7, 7, 7. So I used to tell everyone that, know, for everything I didn't know, I was really incredibly fortunate to know the people who knew that thing the

best.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I'm not an, I wasn't an

expert in managing holistically, but I could literally call Allan Savory

and

Bobby: Yeah.

Sarah: a question, you know,

or Tony Malmberg, who unfortunately has since passed, but phenomenal holistic

management practitioner,

You know or the amount of

times I called Moritz you know, ranch manager to ask him a question or

freak out about something.

Um. I still do that sometimes. Um, sorry, Moritz, uh,

so, you know, the, the resource base of the people in my life were just huge. But as far as what I wish I would've known, I knew what the, I knew the nature of bison, of undomesticated, bison, you know, I knew that I should unload them from the trailer into a corral and let them get settled, not just out into a pasture where they're gonna run through and blow through your fences.

You know, I knew some core things because I had those advisors and those mentors, and then I got to just work.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: You know, I got to just get out there and, you know, build fence and, then rebuild fence better and you know, have a hydraulic line on my tractor break on a day that no one in was open in Durango and learn a lot about rebuilding hydraulic lines, you know, just ranching's a lot of problem solving.

Bobby: What is it about the 777 that makes them so unique? Like what is it about the 777 as a bison producer and ranch that stands out, uh, across the industry and that allowed you to

gain so much, uh, lived experience and wisdom from, you know, their decades of management?

Sarah: Mimi spent years developing, not just her herd and the genetics of the herd and land and the outcomes on the land, but even the team and the people the conditions that she created for the people working with her. that from whatever you wanna say, bottom up from root systems and soil microbes to leadership or from leadership down to the microbes, any way you looked at it, it was regenerative.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. And, and actually we probably should said, can you paint the picture of

the

seven, you know, like the size and scale and.

Sarah: Yeah. So when we're talking about the 7, 7, 7, we're talking about this piece of land that's around 28,000 acres in South Dakota with around 2000 animals. And, um, Mimi Hillenbrand, this woman owner operator of this place, Moritz Espy, her, uh, ranch manager and two foreman, uh, Cody and uh, Butch, that that formed that team. And things have since changed on that piece of land as far as ownership and structure. But for the sake of what it, the time that I was privileged to get to spend there, and from what I learned from that is. You know, we're talking everything from building six inches of topsoil through years of managing bison holistically. 12 or so different, 12 or 13, I wanna say. She corrected me once of different species of dung beetle to, you know, like the most highest population of native birds in South Dakota. I mean, just incredible ecologically

Bobby: It

Sarah: bison that we're a hundred

percent grass fed.

She did not feed those animals.

They

were managed

in a way that

they could dig for forage underneath the snow in the winter, 'cause there was enough forage there for them to do that. Those animals are those incredible producers, like high pregnancy rates, calving rates, drought resilient, amazing animals. Um. Genetics from wind cave and cap rock bison and just, you know, even some Turner Yellowstone in there.

And anyway, so all of that, but also this idea of we're not just managing the land and the species of bison holistically, but we're also going to behave as a team and who we work with in this regenerative manner, which I also highly respect. And so, you know, there was just this kind of, there was not kind of, there was an expectation of me for me to do things well the beginning, for better or for worse.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Um,

Bobby: of stumbled into the best of the best, you know, having Allan Savory on speed dial, having Mimi Hillenbrand on speed dial. Um, very, I would say probably privileged position for a first generational rancher, someone getting started to have that access to expertise, which I'm sure has been,

you know, a, a true gift that most folks will not

be lucky enough to have.

Sarah: Yeah. You know, but, and I would still offer, yes, a hundred percent, very unique, very privileged to

be able to have.

that. And I would still say, even as I've moved on from that, you know, I'm not currently an employee with the Savory Institute. We know Allan's getting older sometimes he's in Zim, uh, Mimi and the 777, that structure has changed and, and evolved.

Um, even still the relationships beyond them now, the relationship with the family that owns this place, the relationships that I'm starting to build to hopefully expand the land that I'm managing, it always comes down to people holistic context, the human beings you're working with. When the right people are in the right roles and there's enough human creativity, anything is possible. I don't just mean that for ranching, land access, et cetera. I mean that for capital, you know, ecosystem service markets, you know, saving the world, whatever recovery centers for mental health, whatever it is, right people are in the right roles that allow them to thrive. And you put enough human creativity there and anything is possible.

Bobby: Hmm. Is that, uh, a piece of what you got out of your mentorship with Mimi, would you say? Um, like the,

the ability to appreciate

someone who is able to, to, to guide you in those ways? Um,

trying to figure out what I'm trying to ask here.

Sarah: Like where did I, where did I get that ethos from?

Bobby: Yeah, yeah. Where does that come from?

Sarah: I mean, it was, it was demonstrated through that. But I had a belief that way.

Where did that come from? I mean, I was definitely raised with the idea of like, where

there's a will, there's a

way

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: which we can talk about the pros

and cons in that as far as like, turns out I'm also not God and

in control of everything.

So there's some limitations with that belief. Uh, but this idea of where there's a will, there's a way.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: then, you know, I remember when I

first learned holistic management and the human creativity part of the holistic management

framework we don't talk a lot about as one of the tools in the toolbox.

You know, we've got these different tools that we can consider like fire or, you know, animal impact. But one of them is encapsulating, one of all of them that we don't talk a lot about is human creativity. And I really caught that when I first was trained in holistic management and, um. Just sort of believed that that was actually the most powerful tool in the toolbox

Bobby: Well, I mean,

yeah, it, when you go back to you getting started, I mean, you mentioned, um, you know, finding an investor, you know, finding a, someone who helped you in terms of creative financing

for purchasing your first animals. So

maybe let's, um, double click on that. Like what,

Sarah: get that idea?

Bobby: yeah,

how did you get that idea and what did the creative financing structure look like and why not go a more traditional route with financing the purchase of those first 15 bred heifers?

Like,

what,

how'd you do that?

Sarah: So the reality is I was looking at, you know, I needed, at the time, I needed like $30,000 and I did not have $30,000 cash. And just to purchase the

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And, uh, I looked at, you know, conventional loans and even any of the USDA FSA loans. And like most loans, once you took out the funds that next month you had to start paying. Even if it was some amount, whatever, but you had to start making payments on the return of that loan. And there was also a lot of paperwork and a lot of very specific qualifications. And I'm, and don't get me wrong, like I love EQIP, FSA USDA, they've got a lot of great programs. I definitely have and continue to participate in those programs when they make sense. They also have federal government oversight in who they are lending to. And so they're, they have to stick to certain qualifications. And so I just, I kind of fell outside of those qualifications. I wanted to buy these animals with the 777 herd, but I didn't live in South Dakota 80% of the time. I was not comfortable with the payments that I would immediately have to start paying the next month after I closed on the loan. So when I was, I don't know, 19, maybe, you know, 18 or something, I got my first credit card.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And by like whatever,

19 or 20, had like, I don't know, six or $8,000 of debt on that credit

card

Bobby: Oh,

Sarah: like

28%. You know,

something crazy.

Bobby: Yeah.

Sarah: So

here I am at like

22. I had this like $6,000 of credit card debt

at 28%. Learning really quickly that that was a poor way to operate because any payment I made monthly was just going to interest.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And it's not that I hadn't been told this, it's that I like to learn things for myself. um, I just wanna be clear that it wasn't that I misunderstood how it worked. I just chose to do it this way anyways. However, at some point I told my dad this situation and he said, well, how about this? I will give you the money to pay off that credit card. And you will make those payments to me at 8% interest. You know, the market was at like six, I don't remember. It was, it was at

least gonna match

market value, you know,

Bobby: Yeah.

Sarah: Because he was not

gonna, you know, he was like, I'm

still gonna make interest in my

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: She still needs to pay interest to

learn the lesson of paying interest,

rather than drowning in whatever, 28%

interest, she can make payments to me over the next whatever it was. So for the next five years or whatever it was, I made payments to my dad, at 8% on that debt. That happened in different ways.

Not, not like credit card debt, but that happened, uh, a couple more times. I used to call it like the bank of Dad, where I could approach and be like, I would like this amount of money. This is the amount of time I'll pay it back and this is the interest that I'll pay. And I was again, very much in a privileged position that my dad could do that with me. And so, to be honest, that's where I really got the idea of. My, my dad was not going to give me $30,000 to buy bison with, but, um, you know, so I, I'm actually not even sure if I even asked him. Probably not. But the point is, is that I got this idea of that what if there was a person who had that amount of cash available and that I could structure it so that it takes, it took me about three years to actually start making

any money

that

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: animals I bought

had calves, and then I was selling calves, keeping some calves, culling some animals, and making money off of that first initial purchase.

So I was able to say, I want, I would like the $30,000 you have to charge me a single digit low interest for it. would like to not make payments at all for the first two years, and then for the next two years, I will make. Some, a couple of medium sized payments, and then I will balloon pay off the remainder of the loan on year

five or six,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Because I was able to calculate out on a spreadsheet that that would be my largest, uh, calf crop from the bison. And with that biggest sale of, at that time would be like 20, buy 20 calves or something, I would be able to pay off the entirety of the loan.

Bobby: How did the structure of that deal end up playing out? Like, were your projections

accurate? Did everything work?

Sarah: Everything worked.

Bobby: Incredible.

Yeah.

That's amazing. Is that something that you would suggest to others who are trying to get started? ​

Um, or are there, um, you know, some, some cautionary flags to, to hold up in, in certain aspects of this? Like, Hey, it works for me, but it could have gone sideways

if X, Y, or Z happened?

Sarah: I mean, the nature of ranching is it can go sideways at any moment.

Bobby: Of course.

Sarah: Uh, right. Like

I remember when I first bought all the animals, and it's the end of the day, and Mort and I are walking out into the corrals to, you know, move some animals or something, and he said, how you feeling? And I said, you know, good. And he is like, okay, you bought two and 3-year-old pregnant cows. Yeah, they'll probably all be open next year. Like none of them pregnant.

Bobby: Yeah.

Sarah: And I, and I was like,

wait, what? Like I would just assume that they would all be pregnant and give me calves. Like

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I hadn't really thought

about the fact if they all came in not pregnant, which would mean no calves, which would mean no sale of calves. But that was a potential, it didn't happen, but it was potential. Or maybe all of those animals got mycoplasma and died. Or how about

this? first

year I sold calves, I only had six calves to sell. We worked sorted,

tagged, you know, vaccinated, 600 calves at the

777. Okay,

Bobby: do about 600 a day for Roundup. Right. Just to put things into perspective,

Sarah: total. or six

Bobby: total. Yes.

Sarah: but this was 600 calves Mm-hmm. worked okay. calves alone. And in that pen of all these hundreds of calves, six were mine. Okay? And we go out there the next day And there is one calf that has died for unknown reasons. It's just in the pen no longer alive. And it was one of my six. And I was just standing there like, wow, the odds of that are just amazing. said, Sarah's feeling like a rancher right about now.

Bobby: That was, I, I remember that when that happened because

you,

I think had the initial reaction of, oh, well that's okay. Like 777 will just take that loss because I'm the newbie that's getting started, and so, you know, they'll, they'll understand my position and be flexible with me.

Sarah: another one to make it alive. You

Bobby: Yeah. But, but the way they approached that was, no,

Sarah: that year.

Bobby: you want to be involved in this industry.

This is how it goes. And that means you gotta take the good with the bad.

Sarah: Yep. That was my death loss for the year one sixth of my

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Um,

Bobby: managed through that. I mean, that didn't affect, uh, you know, your ability to pay back your loan or, or to continue to grow your herd,

so everything seemed to work out. Is that right?

Sarah: Absolutely. But, you know, and, and again, a lot of it comes down to people. One year cap sales were super, I remember this one year cap sales were super, super low to the point that it almost didn't feel worth

selling them.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: But I was able to call another

bison producer. He is in South Dakota, a guy named Larry who's amazing, whatever it was, you know, 10 calves and this is what I really need to get to be able to like survive as an, as a new producer

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And he said, okay. You know,

Bobby: Do you think he said, okay, because the numbers worked for him or because he wanted to see you succeed as a new producer? Because, you know, I've been to a lot of the bison conferences. I, you know, have helped work animals out at Savory, bison Ranch, all of that sort of stuff. So I've got

somewhat of a perspective of the industry compared to say, you know, the cattle industry and

Sarah: Yeah.

Bobby: industry is very tight knit.

You know, because it's small. Um,

actually give us some perspective on bison. Let's, let's talk bison.

How big is the bison

Sarah: I

would industry?

question, I think Larry did it for both. I think the numbers he knew would eventually. Pan Mm-hmm. grow out those animals, sell 'em

as

yearlings, keep him and breed em two, your whatever, you know. But, so I think that

they weren't

gonna significantly hurt his operation, but majorly he also wanted to see my operation, was so tiny then, um, survive. Mm-hmm. ever grateful for

him. All comes back to people. But to your question about the bison industry. So just for perspective,

for those listening about beef versus bison, we kill something around 500,000, half a million beef a day In the US

In the us. Mm-hmm.

there are 500,000, half a million bison

alive in the world now.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. might be pushing those numbers up a little bit.

Sarah: Maybe we're getting up to six. Hopefully seven.

Bobby: I

think the last I saw was six something and we could check with the National Bison Association. They'd have the, the most UpToDate numbers, but yeah, it's around half a million, plus or minus a little bit.

Sarah: It is not over 750,000

Bobby: Yeah.

Sarah: total. We're talking

Canada, United States. We're talking animals that are being, um, grown and

harvested for meat. We're talking about the breeding stock. We're talking about the species of bison. Bison on the planet Earth.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: is less than 750,000 alive. when you think about that, and then you think about the very small percentage of, well, first of all, think about the percentage that are actually being killed for meat

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: We

have to. needs to be

breeders, right? To keep the species alive. So that's a smaller portion of those 750,000 that are being killed at all.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And then there's an even smaller tiny portion of that that are being raised and processed, a hundred percent grass fed, which is what my meat label is from birth to death.

They're on grass. They don't get a grain ration at all, ever their

entire life.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Um,

and so just for, just for species growth alone, that's not a lot of animals. So I think a lot of us in the bison industry are also cognizant of wanting there just to be more bison period. Um,

Bobby: Give a little bit of.

Sarah: reasons.

Bobby: Give a little bit of.

historical context of the bison population and the lowest point that it ever was, you know? 'cause when you know, the best accounts that we have in terms of what were the native populations of

wild

bison here in North America are estimates of somewhere between what, 30 to 60 million. And then

at some point it got down to an extremely low number. So do you have mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Less than a thousand in the 18 hundreds of bison species left. And when people, there were a few, you know, um, Charles Goodnight. There was a, what's his name, Pablo. I can't remember his name. In Montana, there was just a few individuals that essentially saved those last few hundred bison and started ranching them, started letting them continue to multiply, killing them for meat, and starting to let those populations of the species grow back.

Then selling live animals to other people who are interested. And slowly over time, because of ranching, private ranching, we have actually rebuilt that species. Um. And, you know, there's, it's just, they're such an incredible species. Animals themselves, you know, the resiliency for this climate, they don't need shelter in the winter. Their heart rate doesn't increase due to cold until minimum negative 40. It takes them more energy to stay warm than, I mean, more energy to stay cool than to stay warm. They're so well insulated.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: you know, we don't pull calves in the bison industry. They, there's no like castration branding, you know, pulling calves.

Like they specifically, you know, the, animals and a lot of the bison producers, like those animals go out there. They have calves by themselves.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah: So, yeah. But anyways, the numbers are significant. It's very,

it's a very small market.

So when you're talking about trying to grow meat companies, even reality, when we talk about supply issues, we are literally talking about numbers of bison in existence,

Bobby: Yeah. Well, and you're saying that

the size of the industry is minuscule compared to the beef industry. So it's a niche market. It's, it's a niche market to begin with, just when we're speaking about bison. But then when you're saying a hundred percent grass fed, regeneratively raised bison,

it is even minuscule already.

Sarah: like the niche of the niches. Yeah.

Bobby: Yeah. And which I think is a surprise to many. I know many folks that I have spoken to are surprised to hear that not all bison are a hundred percent grass fed because you picture bison out on the prairie roaming around grazing, and that is their natural habitat, and it's like, well, of course they're gonna eat grass, but that's not the reality of it.

Sarah: Yeah. The reality of it also is that to raise bison is requires a lot of grass, a lot of water, a lot of land. And you know, that sort of access, and also as we talked about earlier time,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: it takes more time for an animal to get to a size and readiness to be processed

into meat if they are grazing on that natural cycle of only, you know, grass, of course sub for, you know, Forbes and legumes, et cetera. But, um, it, we have, just like in the beef industry, there is a way with human creativity, we've discovered that you can actually grow those animals out faster. Um, if they're, if they're a fed of grain ration.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And so lots of

times it becomes, I mean, I wouldn't say even lots of times, I would say almost all the time,

um, it's a economical decision.

Bobby: Aside from the, you know, uh, surprise that many people get about, Hey, not all bison are grass fed, what other misconceptions are there about bison that either the general public

or producers or, or NGOs or conservationists, um,

what do folks get wrong,

Sarah: Oh boy, that's a, I don't wanna sit here on the literal soapbox, uh, and talk about what everybody's doing wrong,

because

Bobby: No, no, no. I'm not talking about individuals.

I think, you know, broadly speaking, for example, you know, there's a lot of discussion about, I hear people ask about beef alone all the time, or people saying,

oh, well yeah, you can regenerate that land because bison are on it, but not with cattle. Like,

those are the types of things that I hear a lot of, and I'm like, Hmm, I think there is some nuance here that we should go over.

Sarah: There's Well, and like everything, right, there's always nuance and there's always complexity. The reality is, is that bison are grazing animals with cloven hooves, you know, who eat grass, like other ruminant animals. Take your pick,

you

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: sheep, goats, beef,

if they are confined to a

certain area for a certain period of time, they will overuse.

We like to use the term overgra, but they will overutilize that piece of land. I mean, they're going to eat what they can eat. They're not gonna stop biting plants that are trying to recover because they're hungry, but they know it's gonna do root damage. Um. They're, they're not gonna do that. Uh, so it's really important to remember that bison didn't exist in a silo when they roamed, you know, 60 million strong across our, great plains.

They still had a predator prey relationship. There were predators that were moving them. There was ecological factors as far as like climates and temperatures and seasons that were driving their migration. They would trample, dung, urine bite and continue their annual migration and lots of times not come back to that same area

for a year,

Bobby: Mm-hmm. Or more.

Sarah: time

Or more.

for full adequate recovery of those plants that they had all just trampled and

bitten as they moved. And so we have to remember that yes, do, do bison in this day and age, um, still retain some of those. Genetic desires, like wallowing,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: not bedding down. It is, it is unusual if there is the, if an adequate space and productivity for bison to hang out at a watering hole, which is interesting. Beef do that a lot.

They love to lay in the watering spots. still have some sort of, um, genetic memory that predators also gather at watering holes.

Bobby: Hmm.

Sarah: They

tend to come drink

and move along. Um, you know, as far as where they will cross, they don't, they will

jump, they can jump six feet from a standstill so they're not assuaged by a, you know, a steep bank down to something or, you know, people will say like, oh, your animals aren't gonna go way up there, you know, and, and they will. Um, so, you know, or I've had people be like, oh, they're not gonna, you know, access water all over that ditch. They're gonna come to this point because there's a nice trail there. Nope, they're gonna go wherever they wanna go. Um, so there are some things like that. But, but we also need to remember that as ranchers, those animals are fenced. They're not gonna be able to roam a hundred miles not come back. Um, and so we also need to be cognizant in being the, the apex predator and making sure that they are biting plants and that they're on the right place at the right time with the right behavior these pieces of land.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. But in terms of, uh, bison's desire to, to roam, you know, uh, miles and miles a day that they would naturally cover, you know, there's, I think in the world of grazing people that are of the mindset, the, the tighter you can bunch men, the better it's gonna be. And that is always the case. You know, ultra high stock density grazing is, is what you need to aim for.

And one that's not always true. I think that is contextually

dependent, but it's also not always possible with bison giving their, like natural proclivity to want to, to migrate and run around. Right.

Sarah: Yeah, for sure. And I would, and it's always a contextual decision, Right.

So if you were to ask me, I have got this degraded piece of land, and I just, I don't, I'm not really interested in any sort of species specifically. I'm not concerned about labor or amount of time and continual moving, and what would I do just to regenerate it the fastest?

And you're right, there's a lot of research and experience and, um, demonstration that having a ruminant animal that can be bunched up and intensely grazed and frequently moved will create that healthier ecological cycle, mineral cycle, water cycle, et cetera, faster. Which can be true sometimes. And so there's always sort of this bAllance between, you know, if your goal, if you as an individual, your goal is ecological regeneration as quickly as possible, I would say maybe you should start with goats or you know, or, or beef. there is a bit of, I don't, I want my animals to be able to trail out across the whole pasture that they're in right now. Um, and does that mean that I will have less impact than, not that necessarily as good, but less impact than I could have for bigger results? Probably. But that's a contextual

decision that I've made.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: the beauty is all of

that being said, the beauty is holistic management. And doing the grazing planning is what allows me to be cognizant that that's the decision I'm making. And then to be able to monitor how that decision is affecting the land and adjust and then monitor replan as I go.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: be like, everything is

still regenerating, it's fine.

I'm gonna continue managing in this sort of stock density and et cetera. As I'm, As I'm, going, uh, I could get the feedback that, eh, when I do this, they're really not going over to this area of the pasture at all. So it's not getting, it's the impact that it needs to for healthy soil. then I can make the decision, should I try to tighten up my bison and potentially have them blow through fences and temporary fences and, know, piss them off.

Um. Uh, sure I could experiment with that. Could I say, uh, you know, I think I'm gonna do something else. Like maybe I'll just even bring like beef cows into that two acres at, for like a week during like my neighbors who need some, you know or maybe I'm going to, whatever, you know what I mean? Like, then I get to get into that human creativity of other tools in the toolbox for the ecological results.

Bobby: What about in herding? Have you experimented with that at all?

I.

Sarah: I have not, I think it would work

great with bison, especially on some larger landscapes. I've had the privilege of starting to work with

some

bigger tribal projects, um, on some indigenous land who they very much like the idea of having less fencing

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: up land and fencing and

actually allowing them to roam long distances.

And, you know, until there's enough land and enough predators for that relationship to happen on its own, they are interested in having. You know, range riders or in herders who essentially would, encourage that herd not to come back to where they had already grazed.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. Let's talk about your work with some of the tribes with, uh, reintroduction of bison. So, um, I know there is, uh, a, there's a variety of projects that Savory is working on and you're still involved with, even though you're not a full-time employee at. Savory Institute anymore, you're still involved in some of these projects that are ongoing, 'cause you're kind of like our in-house bison expert and you've got a long history and, and some of these established relationships.

So you're still contracting on, on some of those pieces. So, um, what can you tell us about these projects? I know some of them are still in the works and there are some components of these that can't fully be discussed yet, depending on a few things, uh, details that need to be ironed out. But what can you tell us about

Sarah: Yeah. Um, that's funny. You're, uh, some of the listeners might know, but I was a Savor Institute employee for five years and I left for three years and I came back for three years. Now I'm still contracting, but not employee. I'm kind of like just a really pervasive and hardy, weed or something that savor just can't quite get rid of. Or

Bobby: Try as, try as.

Sarah: with deep roots, with deep roots in the sa deep, deep roots in the savory ecosystem. Anyways, it's a pleasure and always a honor to get to work. Um, you know, representing the savor. And for me, again, um, I guess this is just a completely other plug for any individuals listening as far as the encouragement to design a life where about being in rhythm and all the things that you're doing give you life versus a really extractive. Job and role that does not give us life. Um, I am really fortunate in that have this interwoven meat company, ranching, savory, you know, whatever, consulting, whatever rhizosphere that is my life and my world and my work. Um, and that is a very beautiful thing. So that being said, um, I get to work with bison and with indigenous tribes and with savory and with other partners on some really cool projects.

And what that looks like as a concept is really how do we, you know, as the different, uh, supporters, savory Institute being one of them, how do we bring resources around our knowledge when it comes to. These different ecosystem markets, carbon markets, how we know that management of ruminant animals can increase that, and how can we bring all of these resources these tribes who have a very, as we, as most people know, a very personal, historic, uh, familial relationship with species. You know, those be, those animals belong on, on that land and with the people. And so if that can be supported and the management support around the ecological impact can be supported, and then there can be links and connections with. Uh, economic incentives from various different markets, carbon markets, ecosystem services, markets, et cetera. Then it becomes this incredibly beautiful potential of social, economic and even health wellbeing for our indigenous nations. And so I'm getting the privilege to work. I can't at this time discuss too much about any of those specifics with some of the projects, but just that we're even putting energy and resources and attention, um, in this direction really gives me

joy.

Bobby: Yeah, same. I know. Internally, it's something that we've wanted to do for a long time and we've tried a variety of different routes to, to be able to support in that regards because there is such tremendous potential, like from a holistic point of view, being able to, to help, um, you know, the tribes reintroduce bison back onto their lands.

And so it's great to have these projects underway and I know it's just the beginning. And so maybe, um, in a year or two, once we actually have some things to actually point to and specifics that we're allowed to talk about, maybe

we'll

revisit the conversation. Um,

Sarah: yeah, absolutely. 'cause I just think there's, you know, talk about a real, there's large, you know, over a million acres on some of these tribal lands.

That were meant for bison to be on and an entire cultural and spiritual, you know, connection there also. Um, and it's just a really natural fit. And so while there are a lot of complexities, you know, social complexities, um, and even just complexities, you know, within big projects, the Oh yeah. The outcome potential even already from just what is possible and learning from each other.

Uh, it's definitely, you know, I'll steal a phrase from who is again, Abbey, of we move at the pace of trust and that that's really vital and essential.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I would argue

Sarah: all the time, but especially, you know, in sort of these projects.

Bobby: yeah, and we've seen, you know, some partners in these projects that. You know, outside partners that have been brought together, um, who perhaps are not familiar with working at the speed of trust or at the speed of nature, um, and try to force things. Uh, as you were saying earlier, you can't force nature.

And so there ends up being this mismatch if you're trying to force something through, um, without respecting the cycles of nature or the speed of trust. You know, those social connections that are so critically important for anything that we do. Um, in the regenerative space, the social component is a must have.

If that social component is not there, whatever you're doing is destined to fail. So

I think those are lessons, you know, some of these outsiders to the regenerative space, people that are perhaps newer to the industry, they see, you know, big dollar signs because of carbon markets or whatever it may be, and they think they can come in and have their payday and have a very rude awakening that that's.

That's not how we roll.

That's not how the land rolls. That's not how the bison roll. That's not how the tribes roll. That's not how savory rolls. It's not gonna fly.

Sarah: like even the ecological results, you know, even this idea of trying to match traditional monetary modeling with. Ecological results some of the

questions that are

asked

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: you know, I've simply had to be

like, we cannot give that answer. I mean, I can give you a made up answer,

but it's going to be so contextually relevant and continually changing that if the modeling has to change,

'cause I just

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: give you a firm answer of, you know, this many class of animals at

this time with this community for this period of time.

You know, I just like, even down to, you know, I cannot say with certainty without a grazing plan and monitoring and experience, I mean that this thing, it's not prescriptive, right? And for so many years. Uh, science. And, you know, even society in general has tried to make holistic, make holistic management prescriptive, right? I have this many animals, I have this much acreage. How many pastures should I have? How long should they graze in each one? And then can I repeat that? If it works, can I repeat it? Because we like, right, with the, you know, with how science works, we want it to be replicable because then that makes it provable. And so if we can't make something replicable the same continuously, then it must not be scientific. Um, and so this and that, that's, we do that all the time, right? Even like monetary models, when we're projecting out p and ls, we try to reduce things down to a repeatable, predictable formula or model. And so. Are there some things that we can say for certainty? Of course. Are there some things we can say that we know we need dung and urine and hoof impact on, especially arid landscapes that do not have enough atmospheric moisture to be able to create healthy soils? Absolutely. We know that. We know that, you know, we know that properly managed ruminant animals on grasslands can increase production by 40%, can increase water infiltration rates by 30%.

Like we know that we've seen it demonstrated over and over again. We've got peer reviewed papers on it, et cetera. Can we say a very specific property and people and pasture and eco region, if grazed this way is going to produce these exact results every year? No, it's nature. Things are gonna happen. We can, we can project and model, but we also have to leave room for monitoring and replanning. it's really changing the conversation when it comes to creating investment vehicles, bringing in investments, selling these ecosystem services, how we model and how we project to, to move a little bit away from this reductionist, model of science and money and investment and into a more nature aligned way of projecting and investing.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. And that's not to say that. Science is wrong in any way, shape, or form. I think that's something that people try to put words in our mouth at, at Savory. Um, because there are critiques that have been given in the past, specifically from Allan and others who have been around for, for quite some time, where there is an acknowledgement of the limitation of what the scientific process can study when you're looking at, um, complex adaptive living systems that are at the whim of, you know, weather patterns and behavior of animals and everything that is involved.

And so to. To have a tightly controlled, um, trial, you know, study design that is replicable. I mean, you know, we're not gonna go out and have a, uh, you know, a double blind placebo controlled trial. Like that's just not possible in the world of grazing. It's a little more possible when you're looking at cropland agriculture because the variables that you are manipulating of what species am I gonna plant and what is the spacing between plants and what is my application, uh, you know, how often am I irrigating and yada, yada, yada.

Those variables can be more tightly controlled, but when you're looking at a grazing operation. There is so much more complexity that we have no control over at all. So we can't just go in and fine tune one variable and see how that changes things.

When you change one variable, there's a cascade of effects that affects everything else, and you're never gonna have the same situation twice.

So you can't just

look at things through that same lens. You have to take a different perspective on how

you manage these. So yeah, I, I appreciate your,

Sarah: you know, I love that. But, and I will offer that what we can do is we can understand biology and nature and how the relationships in between things work, and then we can make better informed decisions and even projections, you know, and the, the interesting thing for me has been, I was at the World Economic Forum in Davos this last January, and

there's, so,

Bobby: oh.

Sarah: there's so. I am. Oh God, yeah. I was there.

I was there. I was there with those people. I saw humanoid robots. Uh, but I had a lot of really good, interesting conversations. There's a lot of money, there's a lot of tech. And you know, it's one thing that I would ask sometimes is that there's all these really good ideas, this incredible technology that can measure what's happening on the land.

You know, what's happening in nature. And then there's a, a lot of money that's willing to invest in this technology. And even into now what is called natural capital. But, and not even, but, and the reality is, if that land was continue, if we don't change what's happening on the ground level, nothing's gonna change.

Right. don't change. Nothing changes. So the reality of that, in order to be able to. Reverse climate change to regenerate landscapes to get these positive results that these entire investment vehicles are built upon. Management has to change. And how is that gonna happen? How do you go to a rancher, a farmer big, you know, 500 producer groups in certain countries and say, cool, we've got investment.

We've got technology that can measure we need you to change what you're doing so that we can get good results. It can't stay the same because that's not

working.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: investment and everything is

banking on change, positive change. So can you please change what you're doing to make

that positive

change happens? And the reality is no farmer or rancher goes out on a day-to-day basis with the intent to cause harm to our land.

I don't care

Bobby: Of course not.

Sarah: you are a.

Cropping, tilling, spraying, conventional, whatever.

You

are not.

going out there with the intent thinking that you are harming nature, harming the world, and killing your land.

Right? So now if you're gonna say to producers, change and do better, we, you have to do better. Millions of dollars is riding on it, and this technology is going to be able to accurately measure whether or

not the change is,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: The Savory Institute's ability

to, and not

just, you know, not just, I won't even harp, obviously I'm a little bit partisan, the Savory Institute, but there's a lot of holistic management educators. So I wanna just take a minute to explain how holistic management and the decision making of holistic management. That process married with the ability to actually measure data and empirical outcomes, which at the Savory Institute, our methodology is called EOV, ecological Outcome Verification, and how those two things work together because holistic management is a contextually relevant decision making process. EOV is the data that is coming off of the land.

It is what the land is saying. It's the feedback the land is giving because of those decisions that were made in the holistic management decision making process. if we talk specifically about holistic planned grazing as part of holistic management, we make that plan and we make those management decisions, and then we gather data. EOV, we look at different indicators, like percent of bare ground species, diversity, water infiltration rates, you know, uh, live canopy cover, all of these different indicators of ecological health. And we take that data year over year and it informs the decision making process for the land manager so that they can change or adapt to them, be able to get those positive outcomes. without that feedback loop, there's just, I, I would just be very, very hard. Like how do you make managerial changes a very complex biological world of land and livestock without being able to manage and monitor and get feedback from data of what is going on. So for

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: in integral part of what Savory Institute offers in these projects. Are we the leaders of technology? No. Are we the richest nonprofit organization? Absolutely not. You know what I mean? But what we have that nobody else has is the ability to get boots on the ground. How do we actually manage, and then how do we measure and monitor, and then replan so that we can actually have this positive trend so that these millions of dollars can actually have the impact that it's hoping to have.

But without

that

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: the on the ground link

of the

management, the decisions and that cycle, it's really a

house of cards when it comes to all of this natural capital investment.

Bobby: Yeah. And the piece there that I think is important to note is connecting management, not just to indicators of what's happening at, you know, on the land, but connecting it to the leading indicators of ecosystem function. Because so much of the excitement and the investment is around carbon, and carbon is a single indicator of ecosystem function, and it's.

It's one that is slow to turn over. And so really it's a lagging indicator. And so a lot of investment is coming in with fancy new sensors and Landsat technology and all these, you know, new AI powered this, that, and the other thing. To be able to project or model out your carbon numbers or more accurately read it,

it's like, well, that's great, but is that what is actually needed from the producer's perspective to be able to be better informed of how their management is affecting the conditions at the soil surface.

Sarah: Yeah.

Bobby: And those indicators are gonna come not from fancy technology, it's gonna come from old school eyeballs. Looking at the ground and training your eyes to know what you're looking at. And then proactively going out and looking at those things and having a way to evaluate them that isn't just qualitative, but you know, for the things that are qualitative to as best as you can, create some sort of quantitative metric that allows you to as quickly as possible, see if any of these management changes that you've made are moving things in the right direction or not.

Because if not, you wanna change course as quickly as possible. And if carbon is the number you're looking at to inform your management decisions, you're only gonna get that feedback loop every five to eight years because that's how slow carbon is to turn over. So, you know, there's things that you can look at on a more annual basis that are, are cheaper and easier to do.

It just requires a little elbow grease of actually getting out there and doing it.

Sarah: And I mean, just to, even just to break that down really simply, 'cause I know Bobby and I are most deeply steeped in the, the, I don't even what you would call the "regenerese", like trying, what do we call, like, the language of regenerative agriculture and ecosystems.

Bobby: Oh, okay.

Sarah: Yeah. What is that? Um, know, if I go out there and see with my eyeballs, you know, y you know, year one, year two, year three, that a, know, piece of ground is bare ground and all of the water is running off and causing erosion and none of it is seeping in and there's no ground cover.

And I can tell you that that is not gonna be a positive trend in the carbon measurements five years later. I can already tell you that. Right. Versus like, I can also tell you that if I am year over year getting the feedback on different monitoring sites that are becoming more and more, um, covered with litter, decomposing organic material, the water from rain is soaking into the ground. I can tell you that those ecosystem processes and the ecological health are improving. And, and just, you know, to be clear, there was even just that sort of, um, you could say, sort of monitoring done in holistic management for years, which was Totally enough. totally enough. Like what I,

Bobby: Absolutely.

Sarah: talking about totally

enough for ranchers to be able to increase, you know, the productivity of

their land. We developed EOV because there needed to be more scientific robustness and empirical measurements and more controls to be able to stand up in these new ecosystem markets. So now we have both. Now we have the ability for the, you know, land managers to be able to get that feedback, see real time what's happening, and we have data to be able to show both those leading and lagging, lagging indicators for different investment vehicles.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. Let's pivot beyond this. 'cause I feel like we could spend a whole entire podcast episode on EOV. And actually we have, if anyone wants to go back and see the episode I did with, uh, Leon Bucher of the EOV QA team, um, go and listen to that episode. Um, very insightful, but I wanna talk about the outdoor industry.

'cause I know that is something that you are deeply familiar with. Like that's where your roots are, is in the outdoor industry as a mountain biker, as a back country skier, as a river guide, all of those things. You have some opinions about the outdoor industry and some discrepancies that exist between

the rhetoric

of those in recreation compared to

the actualities of what happens in land management.

What are your thoughts there?

Sarah: You know the, this does go back to what I was saying about how if you are an avid outdoor industry and wild land supporter, then should also be the greatest regenerative agriculture supporter. Because those things are directly linked. I say that in that the outdoor industry has an incredible amount of organizations that are committed to fighting climate change, advocating and education around climate change, protecting our outdoor resources, um, really working to protect, build support, access to longevity for outdoor recreation. Skiing, hiking, you know, access, um, the actual land health itself. And they are passionately dedicated to that. I consider myself one of them, like you said, I'm a mountain biker, backcountry skier, spend time in the wilderness, you know, rafting, river rat, you know, myself. Um, I love, love, the outdoors and that nature and that those wild spaces. And in my position of also managing land and livestock, I have the, um, perspective or the visibility of how, when land is managed improperly. Poorly when land is degrading that the result of that, not only just the temperature at the soil surface, but even leaving tens of thousands of acres, you know, fallow or open or uncovered, that for example, then blows that dust in that topsoil onto the mountains, then we have a big issue in the outdoor industry called dust on snow. what's happening is that this dust, which is coming from land uncovered. No roots land that is coming and blowing onto the mountains and it creates a solar effect on the snow that exponentially increases the heat the rapidness of which that snow is melting, is deeply affecting, you know, shortening the ski season, the runoff for even agriculture and river rats and the whole river rafting culture that happens so fast, so quick, and then it's gone. Um, and even that example of how the dust on snow is affecting ski industry and the rafting industry and irrigating agricultural production industry, is just one example of how that's working. And so even the way that we manage lands with BLM permits and grazing through our public lands, which a lot of misinformation around the fact that. Grazing animals on public lands is bad. And I

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: the way

that we are managing the animals, grazing on those public lands is oftentimes causing harm. But it's not the actual presence of grazing animals on public lands, right? It's just that historically with nature, those animals were not allowed to just stand there on that one piece of land and graze it repeatedly and overuse it as much as they want. Um, so again, it goes back to complexity. It is, we actually are really about the same thing, you know, the regenerative agriculture, regenerative ag, and grazing communities. We also really deeply want rain and snow and healthy soils and, Appropriate timed melt and runoff of our snow. We deeply want that as ranchers, and we also deeply want that as skiers. and so it just, we really need to be careful in that the solution is not an anti meat, anti grazing, anti ranching standpoint in order to protect our public lands and our outdoor industry. just as continuing to manage poorly on land and continuing to manage poorly on public lands is also not the solution.

And so we've got to come together and talk about how we do both things well.

Bobby: Yeah, and this perspective doesn't just apply, say to the, the snow conditions for, for skiing out in the mountains. The same argument can be held for those that are trying to protect the oceans and the coral reefs and the, the dead zone, um, in the Gulf of Mexico. All of these things. You know, if you go back to John Muir's quote that when you pull on a string in nature, you find that everything is connected. If you're wanting to get to the root cause of a lot of the issues that we're experiencing.

A lot of things tie back to how our open working lands are managed or mismanaged.

Sarah: not

Bobby: And

Sarah: not

Bobby: we

Sarah: in the US right? On a global

scale.

Bobby: Absolutely, yeah. Globally. So it's, you know, if you're, if you're an angler, if you're a hunter, if you're a skier, if you're a mountain biker, like.

Whatever form of outdoor recreation that you are involved in your sport or hobby of choice is affected, whether you realize it or not, by how grasslands are managed and mismanaged. And

you would be in a better position to be advocating for more responsible management of our open lands, uh,

because that's gonna have downstream effects in a variety of different domains.

Sarah: lands, you know this, what, what, how incredible would it be if there was um, rewards, subsidies, incentives, whatever, for land to be managed in a way that was actually, you know, improving ecosystems, improving the environment, improving climate, that was also improving the outdoor industry. to take it up a little bigger, you know, sometimes I think it's not just even our anglers and our rafters and our skiers, but. It's our scuba divers, it's our ocean lovers as well. The reason, the number one reason that oceans are acidifying, that the acidity level and oceans and temperatures of oceans are rising, number one contributing factor the amount of atmospheric carbon that the oceans are trying to absorb.

So

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: basically like all

of these massive millions of hectares of grasslands,

you know, in

Asia and Africa and the US that used to be deeply rooted, sequestering carbon have been degraded.

Some of it has

turned to desert, and all of that atmospheric carbon is now that all that carbon in the soil has now been released in the atmosphere. our oceans are over here saying, oh gosh, you know, the grasslands are degraded and are releasing all of this carbon. We've gotta help humanity by. that carbon down into the ocean and

it's trying its

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And in the process it's

killing coral reefs. It's over acidifying the ocean and having horrible, detrimental

effects. Um, and so the, one of the most powerful things we can do is to sequester that atmospheric carbon back down into the soil. And secondly, I mean, if you right now out in major theaters, um, it'll be available for streaming soon too. But in major theaters around the west right now, there's a film called The American Southwest, it shows a lot of the impact on the Colorado River. And we love to immediately blame livestock production for what's happening on the Colorado River. And I will say that confinement feedlots do use a lot of water and that that is not the solution. I know from experience and data that properly managed ruminants actually creates water cycles on land that is more effective. But what's also happening is things like growth of alfalfa and the American Southwest, which the majority of is being sold overseas. Why are we growing one of the most water intensive crops the driest, most water lacking places in the country and then selling it Why are we doing that? Seems like a very poor decision. So, and, and the reality is it's happening because of economic reasons of private landowners, right? And so it's obviously a socially complex situation, but it's not complex in that it's destroying the Colorado River and that land. So the complexity is in the social. Effects, right? So we've gotta get more creative. We've gotta address that. We've gotta be honest about that. Um, highly recommend you see that. film if you have in the American Southwest. Um, but again, still Colorado River lovers like myself, grand Canyon, you know, lovers like myself, also very concerned about what's happening in land management.

Bobby: Mm, absolutely. I mean, I spent many years trail running ultra marathons and, you know, you see everything devastated by wildfires now. I mean, the, the list goes on and on and on of how land management affects our ability to exist and recreate in the outdoors. And so I think there is a really strong argument to be said there, and it's something that I think we've got our work cut out for us in terms of changing some of the narrative in the outdoor industry because the dominant narrative is so, you know, anti livestock, um, which we get from a lot of different angles.

Um, but I think there's some reframing. That certainly needs to happen. So we've got our work cut out for us. Um, we are coming up on an hour and a half, Sarah, and I know you probably have fence to fix or you, let's be real, you probably wanna go mountain biking. So I'm gonna leave you with one last question, which is what, what's coming down the pipe for you?

What are you looking forward to in the future? What is in store for Sarah Murphy, for Murphy Legacy Bison for, you know, things yet to be created? What's coming?

Sarah: Oh boy. Uh, all things in the Sarah Murphy ecosystem are going through a time of a little bit uncomfortable, uh, emergence. And I don't mean that in a necessarily a bad way, but there has been a lot of opportunity, growth opportunity in my meat company. There is a lot of interest and potential and need for, um, more land.

I just need more land to be able, not own or whatever, but just to be able to steward and manage and put regeneratively raised bison on. Um, it's a lot of, um, I had ever since before I even had this. here in the beginning, in the dream, in the beginning, uh, there was Sarah. Um, always been my desire to use this piece of land as a resource for my community.

And so I am wanting to actively bring other women onto this land to want to do bees or poultry or pigs or whatever, um, that I love, but that I don't have the time to do by myself. But I have, you know, there's a, if you remember Bobby, we went to be Love Farm for a Savory Institute team meeting, and there was this big sign that said, when you find yourself with more than enough, build a longer table, not a taller fence. And I really feel like I'm in this, um, space right now of I've got more than enough demand and potential in the meat. Company, I've got more than enough room to offer other people access to land. then, um, I've always had a desire and a passion to also utilize this land in a way that helps the homeless and alcoholic and addiction. of my community. So all that being said, it is not possible for that all to happen with only Sarah Murphy. And so, um, I am actively having conversations and allowing for the potential for partnerships to emerge. Um, I would love a partner or two that believes in the values and the ethos of the meat company and wants to be part of that and help grow that company. You know, I would love a partner who wants to grow the land base itself. Um, and so I'm actively looking for human beings to add to the human creativity and add to the, this ecosystem. So that's what's in the future, I hope, I hope, more partnerships, more human creativity, um, that then creates conditions for life. just, you know, of economics for other humans and salaries, really, basically, but also life on the land. Literally more bison, a species, um, and more incredibly healthy regeneratively produced meat for humans. if you're listening to this and you just Jones in to be a, a partner in a very emerging space, um, feel free to always reach out

Bobby: Well, there you have it. We will, um, link to the American Southwest film that you mentioned in the show notes. I'll also put the website to Murphy Legacy Bison there in the show notes, uh, specifically with the contact forms that you can get in touch with Sarah,

if you are one of those people that feels called to be a part of the work that she's going on.

And

Sarah: come

Bobby: Sarah just wanted to say,

or, yeah, it's a beautiful spot to go visit. Go.

If you're listening, go to Durango. It's awesome. It's the best part of Colorado. I'm, I'm in Denver and I can.

whatever. It's fine. It's beautiful. I highly recommend it. Anyways, Sarah, thank you for taking the time today. Always fun to chat. Go have fun non biking. I'm sure that's what you're gonna go do now. See ya.

Sarah: See ya.

Bobby: Ruminations is a production of the Savory Institute, the Savory Foundation, and Land to Market. If you like this episode, please consider leaving us a five star review on Apple Podcast and subscribing to our YouTube channel where you can find video versions of all episodes plus other content. Many thanks to Travis McNamara who composed and performed our theme music.

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