Heifer International, Heifer USA, & Holistic Management

Intro: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Ruminations. I'm your host, Bobby Gill, and today I'm excited to introduce you to an absolute gem of a human being who also happens to be a Savory Hub leader, Donna Kilpatrick. Many of you are probably familiar with Heifer International, the global NGO, working to eradicate hunger and poverty by working with small holder farming communities around the world.

They have their really popular, uh, gift, uh, a goat or gift, a cow program that you might get mailers for. Well, Donna, our guest today is the Director of Regeneration at Heifer's Center for Regenerative Agriculture in Perryville, Arkansas, which is also the home of Heifer, USA. With over 30 years working in ag, Donna has managed the 1200 acre heifer ranch since 2017 with the focus on regenerative systems and teaching small holder farmers how to grow food productively, profitably, and in a way that creates abundant ecosystems, economies, and communities.

Donna is an accredited field professional with the Savory Institute, and she is also a savory hub leader at Heifer Ranch. In this conversation, we get into Donna's love of operating big farm machinery. How heifer USA fits into Heifer International's global mission. What it's like working with Amish farmers, what it's like running an all female farm management team.

What she learned at the two advanced level Holistic Management courses that she's been to international work in Senegal and Honduras, and Guatemala, Kenya a whole lot more. A wide ranging conversation that I'm sure you will take something away from. And so without further ado, here's my conversation with Donna Kilpatrick of Heifer Ranch.

Bobby: Hey, Donna, how you doing?

Donna: Hey, Bobby. I'm great. How are you doing?

Bobby: I am doing very well, thank you. I'm in the, the midst of my paternity leave right now. Uh, but I'm taking a break from my paternity leave to come on here and chat with you. And so this is a, a, a nice change of pace from all the diapers I've been changing lately.

Donna: Yeah, well, I did see, I saw a picture the other day on Facebook, and again, congratulations. And I think you might have the cutest babies I've ever seen.

Bobby: Well, my two girls, they do look fairly identical, um, at least as they as babies. Um, you know, we'll see as they grow if that changes. So, um, at least there's some consistency and I know they're mine.

Donna: Mm-hmm. That's awesome.

Bobby: Well, thanks for coming on and talking to us today. I really appreciate it. Um, you know, when I was asking folks in the Savory Network who I should bring on and interview, your name came up a bunch of times, so I think there's something to explore there and, and it's an opportunity to dig into to your history in agriculture and your unique role that you have at Heifer.

Um, that I think excites people and brings a lot of hope for such a. Um, a very well known global institution like Heifer International. To be involved in this work, to, to really jump in, um, into regenerative ag and specifically holistic management, I think that brings a lot of excitement to folks and so I'm really excited to, um, just to explore your path and, and see how you got here and, and what you're up to at Heifer.

Um, maybe a good place to start would be there, um, since the name Heifer International is. Probably familiar to a lot of folks. You know, it's this global organization all across the world helping small holder farmers, usually through, um, gifts of livestock. Um, usually small ruminants like goats, uh, but I think in some instances also, uh, cattle as well.

Um, and your role is not at Heifer International, but at Heifer USA, which is the American arm of Heifer, and specifically at Heifer Ranch in Arkansas. So, help us tie together those various entities and how are they related and, and what is the overall work at Heifer? How, how does this all work together?

Donna: Yeah, sure. Um, so Heifer International is an international development organization and, uh, the mission of Heifer is to end hunger and poverty and care for the earth. Um, and we've been around for 83 years, I believe, um, and currently working in 19 countries. So one of those countries is the United States.

So a lot of people think about Heifer as an international organization, which, which it is. and we're quite well known for our work in other countries, but Heifer has also been here for a long time working in the United States and working with small holder farmers. Um, so you mentioned earlier that you know, heifer, people know heifer for the gift giving catalog around the holidays you give someone a goat.

Um, that's been sort of our marketing tool. Uh, and we do give livestock, but we, I think what we're better known for is for working with small holder farmers and working within communities to provide training and opportunities. Um, and we don't work within the individuals, but we work with communities. Um, so we do work with ruminants, but we also work in vegetable gardening and vegetable production as well as, um, aquaculture. Lots of different areas that, that, um, you know, we didn't, we're not quite as well known for, but it, that work is still going on. so yes, my work in the United States, so I work at Heifer USA and I've been here for, gosh, I guess 18 years.

So quite a long time. Uh, the first 10 years I was in, uh, Rutland, Massachusetts. So Heifer had a learning center in Massachusetts. Um. Somewhat similar to the learning center that we have here at the ranch, uh, where people, but, but the, I would say the shift in that is that when I was in Massachusetts, really our, the impetus of that location was to have faith-based organizations and school groups come in for training to learn about heifer's work throughout the world. So how does heifer work in other countries? And we would have, you know, there would be a global village where people could come and experience what it might be like to live in another country, the type of food, and have sort of a, a very deep experiential, uh, experience. Um. So after 10 years after being at Heifer, uh, in Massachusetts for 10 years, the Heifer International decided to close that facility, um, because we were really focusing on farmers, um, in the Mid-South. And that as that facility closed, I was asked to come to Heifer Ranch, um, where I work as the director of Regeneration. Um. So my, guess my duties in that, um, we were in the process of shifting from this global approach to teaching people about heifer's work, to really focusing on more project-based work where we're helping farmers and training farmers. Um, at that point we were also helping grassroots farmers cooperative get off the ground. Um, and a lot of our, our focus when I first started was building the infrastructure for production, so producing livestock that was going to grassroots farmers. Um, as more small holder farmers were coming on produce for grassroots.

Bobby: Can you explain a bit what grassroots co-op is?

Donna: Sure. Um, grassroots Farmer's Co-op is a small cooperative. Um, it started in Arkansas. Cody Hopkins, sort of, uh, he and his wife are, are, began that process. It started as a door-to-door delivery. And then, um, and Perry Jones, who was the director of Heifer Ranch at the time, uh, spent some time in Nepal doing a cornerstones training, which is really looking at our deep values within Heifer. It was on that trip that they decided to, maybe they could team up and heifer USA could help support grassroots as it scaled. Um, so basically it's still a very small cooperative, it's a e-commerce site where, um. Uh, from Arkansas, from local farmers in Arkansas, um, are shipped mostly to the coast.

So East coast, west Coast. Um, very high end product. Very, um, say regenerative for sure, but also focused on animal welfare and also farmer quality of life. So fair price to the farmer for a premium quality, quality product for the customer. Um, and, you know, it's doing well. It's a great product. So if anyone's looking for, you know, order and have direct, direct to your door, uh, look at grassroots.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. And your work with grassroots co-op farmers, what does that entail specifically? Like what kind of support are you providing to those producers?

Donna: Yeah, so currently we're providing EOV testing, so ecological outcome verification, monitoring, testing, um, for about 12 farmers within the grassroots system. And we've been doing that. We started EOV testing five years ago. Um, so we first tested, uh, falling Sky Farm, which is Cody Hopkins Farm and Heifer Ranch. Um, and then we've picked up more farms, uh, in the year since. Um, but yeah, working with those farmers and giving them feedback on how they're, um, you know, they're. The ecology of their land is doing and the ecosystem process are functioning. Um, and we've seen some really incredible changes, um, in land production, land health since we've started, uh, testing at the, at those farms.

Bobby: Hmm. Any notable examples or any particular indicators that you've seen increases in or anything like that? .

Donna: Yeah. There's one farm in particular and we just tested this farm maybe three, two months ago. Um, it's an Amish farm. They do a lot of poultry. So Um, the first year that we went, it was, the production was, was very low, they were very tapped into wanting to improve the ecosystem and were extremely receptive. To going out with us when we did our testing and to listening and learning about the testing process. this is, I guess our fourth year testing this farm year when we went, I have never in my life walked through a field of grasses that we saw there. The big blue stem, the little blue stem. Um, there were so many clumps of, uh, gamma grass. And that is just not something that we see very often here because it's, it's really rare and it's affected, it's really affected by poor grazing practices.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: you know, gamma grass and those natives just, you just don't see 'em very much because overgrazing is so common. Um, but on this farm, the farmer had really been focused on, um, restoring the ecosystem and. The principles and the practices that he implemented, uh, based on the feedback from EOV, um, help make that happen. The other thing that I thought was amazing about that farm is I, I think time that we were there, and of course, EEOV testing can take the whole day. Um, and the whole time that we were there, we're constantly hearing Bob White quail, which is very unique in this area because, um, because of, you know, conventional agriculture has completely wiped out, uh, the habitat for a lot of ground nesting birds. So you don't see many Bob White quail anymore. You don't see any meadow larks, not many anymore. But at this farm it was just, you know, the, the beautiful set call of the Bob White Quail, you would just hear it bouncing all over the place and it literally, you make your hair stand up on your arms.

Bobby: Hmm.

Donna: this was, this ecosystem was as abundant and full of life as one more so than I've ever seen,

Bobby: That's.

Donna: incredible.

Bobby: Yeah, that's awesome to see. And it's, it's because, not because you came in with some sort of intervention saying, Hey, you're doing things wrong. You should change X, Y, and Z. Here I am the grazing guru to tell you how it's done, which is what we see in a lot of places. It's more, Hey, let's see what the land is telling you, and then let's see what the land is asking for and adjust accordingly.

And you make those changes. And lo and behold, a symphony of quail.

Donna: yeah, absolutely. And also, you know, really talking with a farmer about what, what does he or she want? Like, what is their context? What is their North star? What do they want to see the land do? and I think that's really, I mean that, I think that's the heart of it.

Bobby: Mm-hmm. When you work with producers, do you find any common challenges that folks are up against in your region? I mean, you know, so working with folks at grassroots co-op, um, you know, you were just giving the example of the one Amish farmer, and

Donna: Mm-hmm.

Bobby: kind of curious how the Amish farmers context might differ from, say, a, a traditional farmer or rancher that you might deal with, um, you know, in the region.

Any, anything that comes to mind there.

Donna: Well, I think, I think in general, you know, same kind of, um, conundrums that many small holder farmers are in access to markets, um, access to proce processing. Um, those are, those are hindrances for farmers here. Thankfully we have, um, of processing plants as well as a poultry processing plant. I'm not sure of the statistic, and I could get this wrong, but there's like, what, 23 small, small poultry processing, um, locations throughout the United States, and many of those are not open year round, so it's seasonal. Um, so. As Americans, we eat a lot of chicken. Um, so for a small holder farmer, uh, to get into to pasture poultry, which is actually has the, a lower barrier of entry in terms of livestock production, there are issues within the, the processing capabilities that that prohibit that. so processing is, is a, is a problem. one thing that I've seen with the Amish communities and the Mennonite communities within grassroots is just this network, this strong connection with of community that, you know, when they have things like. Chicken catch night when we have chicken catch night here, uh, we're, you know, picking up thousands of birds by hand and putting in a me in a crate and stacking 'em on a truck.

And then those go to the processor on chicken catch night on an Amish or a Mennonite farm, um, they call in the community and everyone comes and helps. And there's this network of, of strong relationships and support for one another. I think that's very different and very beautiful.

Bobby: Um, let's actually rewind a little bit. I want to hear some of your backstory and hear how you got into agriculture and then eventually landed at. Heifer. So can you take us through your journey starting back to Warren Wilson College and, you know, ending at, you know, you arriving at Heifer.

Donna: Yeah, it's a, it's a little bit of a long and winding story and I, I hope I don't meander too far, but,

Bobby: It's a podcast if we want. That's totally by me.

Donna: So Warren Wilson is a small liberal arts college in Swano, North Carolina, uh, based on a triad of strong, very strong academics, work required of all students regardless of financial need

Bobby: Wow.

Donna: service to the community. So that's part of their holistic educational, uh, plan for students.

Bobby: Is that common for a college to have work requirements of its students?

Donna: yeah, no, there's a network of work colleges, so I think there's like. Maybe 10. Some of them actually have also closed, so I would say there's probably about eight now. And ironically, college of the Ozarks is one of the work colleges, which is hours from

Bobby: Yeah.

Donna: so I

Bobby: know, it's interesting, like I think back to my own days in college and I always thought it was interesting that I. I was working three jobs, you know, 'cause I had to pay my way through college. And then all of my friends and my dorm mates, they, you know, were, they had everything paid for them. You know, I would get home from work at like one 30 in the morning and they're all like, playing video games and drinking and all that.

I'm like, we are not living the same lives and the experience we're getting is different. And also the amount of time we have available to study, I think is quite different. And we're graded on the same curve. That doesn't necessarily seem fair. So anyways, the, the concept of a working college, uh, that's, uh, intriguing and I kind of wanna learn more about that.

But anyways. Okay.

Donna: I,

Bobby: Go ahead.

Donna: mean, it was, it was exactly what I needed.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: the setup was all students worked regardless of, of need. Um, and there were many, many places for students to work anything from admissions office to the cafeteria, to the plumbing crew, to the college farm. And I got there and was placed on the cafeteria crew. I went to work for the first day and it was fine, but I knew I wanted to be on the farm. So I went to the Dean of Works office, Dean of work, I mean, who doesn't wanna go to a college with a dean of work? Um, so I went to the Dean of Works, uh, office, and I basically begged I got on the farm. And it was like, you know, like people talk about finding your tribe. I that was, you know, that was it. Um, and I remember distinctly, my parents would be like, we're paying for a liberal arts education, and you're staying over breaks to plow, or you're staying, you know, you're staying to work on the farm. But I, I loved every second of it. Um, so on the farm there were, you know, student leadership positions and I was the pig crew leader.

So I, we, we had a swine operation and I led that crew for three years and then literally stayed and worked. Um. often as possible over breaks. And this was, I'm, I'm getting old, uh, and this was way back in the day. Um, I remember, you know, I would see a lot of guys driving tractors, but not many women at all. Um, so being asked to run equipment was a big deal and I, I, I really fell in love with that. And one of my favorite things to do, which is not, um, again, my ideas about farming practices have changed quite a bit because one of the things that I used to love more than anything was plowing and disking. And I would just plow and dis and, you know, we plowed a lot of land there and planted corn and all kinds of things. Um, and cutting hay, which I also don't do anymore. Um, so yeah, it was an incredible experience and there was something. There was something about, definitely about everyone working. So there was this common theme that everyone worked, and it didn't matter if you came from an affluent family or, um, one of high need. Everyone was on the same level. And we spent half day in class and a half day on the work crew that of, of whatever work crew we were on. Um, yeah. And it was just really instrumental.

Bobby: And then,

Donna: that, go ahead. Go

Bobby: no, I was just proceed. I was about to interrupt, but it seemed like you had a train of thought. I don't wanna interrupt it.

Donna: Well, no, I was thinking about the transition from Warren Wilson. So I, I studied, uh, sustainable ag. I also studied literature, mostly southern literature at Warren Wilson. Um, and then after that I knew that I wanted to go into farming of some sort. Um, Warren Wilson, you know, this is what in the early nineties, Warren Wilson. I wouldn't say it was I would say it was sustainable, uh, before sustainable was even cool. Um, and the, the real thing about Warren Wilson's agriculture was the fact that there was a river that cut right through campus and, um, just a lot of emphasis on keeping that water supply safe. Um, but anyway, so I sustainable ag literature.

Graduated, wanted to stay in farming, and there was a music professor, Warren Goggin, who I was talking with, and he was like, have you ever heard of Hickory Nut Gap Farm? And I was like, no. And so he was like, well, Ja, at the time, Jamie Clark was the Democratic congressman from North Carolina, and he was, he was, he's, uh, Jamie Agers grandfather. Um, so I. I decided to put my name in the hat and I contacted them and got invited up to the big house for a big dinner. I don't have you visited Hickory hu?

Bobby: I haven't, no, I mean, I, I know the hickory nut gap folks, uh, pretty well, but I've never actually been out to as to visit.

Donna: I mean, just like Warren Wilson. It's a, it's a very, um, it's a beautiful community of lots of folks who care about each other. Um, you know, I went, I went for my interview, which was sitting big house is this huge house with, um, these paintings, murals on the wall of, when it used to be a stage, a stage coach stop. Um, just an incredible, incredible house with lots of history. And I remember sitting at this long table and just. Getting to know people and being asked questions. And I got the job and that was when they were a dairy farm, so a small dairy farm. And know, I didn't have a lot of experience in dairy. I had at Warren Wilson, I had spent eight weeks in Costa Rica and ended up working at a neighbor's dairy because the milker had actually cut his finger tip off and they needed some help. Um, and so I sort of split off from the group and worked on the dairy farm and had enough experience to apply for this job at Hickory Nut Gap with my experience also from Warren Wilson. And it was, it was just a phenomenal opportunity. And that's what it was. It was an opportunity for continued training because they were taking a huge risk on this very green farmer coming in to help with their dairy, their family dairy. Um. Yeah, I loved it and I, I think it was there, you know, I talked about sustainable ag at Warren Wilson. It was really a hickory nut gap more of the regenerative approaches. And again, nobody was doing things like this, but I remember I have somewhere in my possessions, this picture of me standing in a field of cover crops with the herd of Holstein milk cows and the cover crops are up to my waist. And that was pretty unusual. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't like a 12 mix cover crop, you know, assortment that we might plant nowadays. But it was definitely, you know, progressive using cover crops for, to improve soil quality and also to provide additional forage for livestock. Yeah.

Bobby: and for folks that aren't familiar with Hickory Nut Gap, they are a fairly prominent operation, you know, based out of Asheville. They distribute throughout the Mid-Atlantic, maybe even the entire country, but multi-species operation with various products. And as it so happens, they are also now a savory hub in the network.

So your first job out of college was at Hickory Nut Gap. They eventually became a savory hub. You are now a savory hub leader. I just think the, the serendipity there is, is cool to see how those paths intersect.

Donna: absolutely. And what's really cool is that now we're having these conversations with Hickory nut gap and white oak pastures. And who else is in that conversation about like the Southern consortium of hubs and how we can work together and support each other. Um, and in September, we're gonna be hosting a holistic management course at Warren Wilson College Top. Taught by, um, Mikey, who's the EOV and, uh, holistic management person and Virginia at Hickory Nut Gap. And then here from Heifer. Uh, I work with two other accredited professionals to do, we have a class that we call Hands-on Holistic Management. That's very, 'cause we're utilizing the ranch, um, as a teaching resource. Um, but it's the 10 day, you know, it's the standard 10 day immersion.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: gonna be teaching that all together, all of us, um, at Warren Wilson. And then Mikey's gonna come here and we have a class that starts, in two weeks. August 5th, no, August 6th through the 15th.

Bobby: Okay, well, we'll, we'll put a link to the upcoming courses that you guys have going on, both that one in August and the, the Hands-on Holistic Management at Warren Wilson,

Donna: Yeah. Yep.

Bobby: outside of Asheville, which is coming up. Um, and you, you were mentioning two other accredited professionals that you're teaching with.

Those are also collaborations with folks elsewhere in the Savory Network. So my understanding is you're working with, uh, Dylan at the Kentucky Savory Hub and then also Ken Smith, who is an educator out of Texas. And so you, you seem to be very collaborative in how you approach things. Is that kind of your mo

Donna: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I feel like I am pretty thinly stretched here. And when we were, um, I guess we were in an advanced training at, um, oh gosh, in Colorado. Help me.

Bobby: Oh, at the, the Advanced Holistic Management, uh, courses that you took.

Donna: Yes, absolutely. When we were, so I, the first time I did that course, um, Ken and Dylan were in it. Um, and.

Bobby: explain, let's explain the course for people. Okay. So, um, just to give context, at Savory Institute has, uh, two campuses. We've got one in, uh, Dimbangombe, which is in Zimbabwe. That's Alan Savory's home. It's the original Savory Hub. And then the second one is at Savory's Bison Ranch, West Bijou Ranch in Strasburg, Colorado, just east of Denver.

And so we hold courses there for accredited savory network members. And one of those courses that we've just started offering in the past few years is an advanced holistic management course to really allow folks in the network to, to uplevel um, their, uh, their relationship and their understanding of holistic management.

And so it's a, was it week long or a nine day? How long

Donna: yeah, a

Bobby: they?

Donna: It was a

Bobby: Yeah, and the, my understanding is, so they're taught by Byron, he's our senior director of programs, he's our head trainer. There's really no agenda. It's kind of let's get the group together, let's see where everyone's understanding is of certain things, and let's kind of build a loose agenda together and work our way through it over the next X number of days, and let's just go deep on stuff all day long.

Let's be out in the field looking at stuff. Let's be at the whiteboard, going over things. Let's, you know, be around a campfire talking about stuff, and let's just go deep and really dive into where all of this comes from and what it means. That's my perspective of these courses. As an outsider who has not taken one of these courses,

Donna: Mm-hmm.

Bobby: I'm curious what your perspective is, especially that you're, I think, the only repeat offender so far who has gone to, to two of these, so.

Donna: believe that.

Bobby: Maybe there's others I don't know, but I'm, I'll give you the title for now. Un until someone else proves me otherwise. But, um, yeah. How were those courses for you and, um, what did you take away from those?

Donna: Well, I, they were incredible and, and I think one thing that I took away as something that we just talked about, which is, uh, deep connections and relationships and folks that you could reach out to, um, for support for questions. Um, but for me, you know, having that I took my, first of all I took during COVID is when I did my, uh, management training online. Um, so. You know, that was a pretty intense time for me here at the ranch because we had totally shut down and my boss had asked me to move to the ranch, and we had a small team here just like getting the daily grind done. so I took the class online because it wa there, you know, there wasn't an opportunity to take it in person because of COVID. So one of the main reasons that I decided to go to the advanced class was to have that in-person, you know, experience the face-to-face experience, and to learn from Byron in person, because I thought that, I mean, I still think that Byron is one of the most gifted educators across any, you know, any subject matter. Um, but just, just such an incredible teacher and I wanted to have the opportunity to learn from him in person. Um. Yeah, it was somewhat, like you said, I think I was one of the, one of the, I think I went to the first opportunity, the first class that they offered, and it was a little bit more structured, like it was a, a little bit of a recap of holistic management, but in person, um, but taking deeper dives on subject matters that that's, you know, the people, whoever was there wanted to, to go into taking a little bit deeper dive and then having these incredible out in the, with the bison experiences in the afternoon, um, looking at ecosystem health.

And the first time that I was there, gosh, Colorado was in a drought, like nothing I've ever seen.

Bobby: Yeah.

Donna: it was crazy. Um, so we, you know, we were talking about the expenditure of hay, watching the bison get fed every day, moving them on dirt to more hay for them to

Bobby: It, it looked like Mars out there. It was bare, it was not looking good. I, I remember bringing, 'cause regularly we'll have tour groups go out to the ranch and, you know, I'm about 45 minutes away, so I, I get out to the ranch often and, and support on some of those tours. And for a period of time, you know, after a few years of that drought, we're like, I don't know that we wanna bring groups out because I think people are expecting to come out and see, oh, savory Institute, this is your ranch.

It's gonna be flourishing with, you know, thigh high perennials just as, as beautiful as can be. A sea of waving grass. It's like, no, this is bare because there is no moisture and we have no control over that we can. Control the conditions of how our animals are interacting with the land and the animal impact that we're giving to the land.

But we can't control the amount of rain that's falling from the sky. We're preparing for that day so that when the rains do come, things will respond. And thankfully they did. Uh, the rains came and things responded, and everything looks great now. But, um, I think the realities of regenerative ranching and holistic management, uh, can be surprising to folks at times when they see, oh, regenerative doesn't always mean absolutely beautiful and flourishing.

Sometimes it means just doing less bad given the hand that you're dealt.

Donna: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, one thing for me coming from, um, you know, on a brittleness scale, um, a very non brittle leaning environment where our management of livestock definitely can improve our ecosystem. going to, in that time, an incredibly brittle. Brittle environment, um, with, you know, bare soil and dust.

And I came home with the, the worst sinus infection from breathing in dust all week. Um, yeah, it was, it was a, it was a huge learning opportunity and I just an opportunity to see the juxtaposition of the brittleness scale that we've been talking about in class forever. But I think there's really a lot of importance in the experiential aspect of that. You can look at it in a textbook and you can hear people talk about what it's like to farm regeneratively in a brittle environment, but until you experience it, um, I think it's pretty hard to grasp. So,

Bobby: Yeah, I, I can definitely see that.

Donna: yeah.

Bobby: aside from the, the personal connections, uh, that you made through those advanced courses and, you know, kind of experiencing brittleness firsthand that, that stark contrast to, to the more non brittle environment that you're used to in Arkansas, were there any concepts that, um, maybe you developed a better understanding about or things you had to unlearn?

I, what I'm trying to get at is. What are some of these advanced ideas or, or topics that were discussed that perhaps someone who's new to holistic management or the regenerative space or farming in general, things that they might be overlooking that, um, require more nuance or, or care and attention to really grasp what's going on.

Donna: Yeah, I mean for me, again, I had done the class online, so I remember. Uh, just when we would talk about the ecosystem processes in, in an online class, there's no opportunity to go out and look at what we're talking about when we're talking about a functional water cycle energy flow and having those. Opportunities to be out there and dig deep in the soil or to look at the ecosystem and see those four processes and when they're working and when they're not working. For me, that might sound, that might sound basic. Like we all know the ecosystem processes, um, and how important they are to be functioning correctly and how they affect each other.

And um, you know, there it's one ecosystem and four panes of glass. But to really, really like have Byron go through that and to have input from other class members, um, have their perspective. I would say it was the hands-on things about some pretty standard stuff within holistic management. example tools.

What kind of tools do we use? Um, me it was very eye-opening to think about the different way that we would manage the bison in this brittle environment. Um, and that's a nuance and that's a concept that I don't think I would've gotten without being there.

Bobby: Is there anything that you brought back to Heifer Ranch or things that you changed back at the ranch?

Donna: Possibly. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm trying to think. Um, I would say possibly more impact on the land, like utilizing our animal, bunching them tighter. Um, really thinking about the importance of, of that for what we're trying to achieve. Um, I would say impact and also. Herd effect, like we started running our cows over hills to break down a ridge and make it more smooth. Um, yeah. So things like that, just

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: things that when they add up together do make a big impact.

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Bobby: Yeah, totally. I'm, I'm realizing, you know, as you were talking about things, um, you know, that you're doing at the ranch, at the outset of this conversation, we spoke broadly about what Heifer Ranch is and kind of its mission and its work in the region, but we didn't really, um, explain the specifics of what sort of animals are you raising, how big is it, you know, that sort of stuff.

So why don't you give us the lay of the land of the ranch itself.

Donna: yeah, for sure. Um, so Heifer Ranch, 1200 acres, um, surrounded on three sides by a river. Um. We get 40 plus inches of rain a year. Um, it's dispersed over the years, so we're really in a very non brittle leaning environment. Um, in terms of enterprises, we have, uh, south pole cattle, um, small herd, about 200, 2 25. Um, we've got sheep, probably about 300 katahdin sheep, um, lots and lots of pasture poultry. So I talked about grassroots in the, in the beginning. Um, we're still growing poultry for grassroots, so, uh, lots of pasture raised boilers, and then some turkeys. probably about 25,000, uh, broilers on pasture a year, and then about 5,000 turkeys a year. And we were raising pigs on pasture and we really utilized pigs, um, to go through a lot of our planted pines. So before, say, let's say 2014, we started management At that point, when we were really focused on, you know, faith-based organizations, school groups, coming to learn about heifer, we didn't need all of the land.

So we started planting lob, lolly, pine. So we have about 500 acres of planted Loblaw pines that we're now going in and we're, we're taking some of those trees out. We're utilizing the pigs, um, to re to move that to more of a silvopasture area. And it has really, I mean, I would say those areas where the pigs are, are some of the most beautiful on the ranch.

Just so much shade. Uh, true combination of trees and forage and livestock, living in harmony with abundant wildlife, abundant bird populations. Um, it's just really beautiful.

Bobby: Yeah, like a little Savannah.

Donna: Yeah, yeah. Uh, the staff here is incredible. Um, so when I started here, I was much more on the ground, putting in lots of infrastructure to get our production up. Um, managed the cattle herd for a while. I was doing that when we started becoming really interested in sa, the Savory Institute and Accreditation, and then becoming a hub. Um, now my work is very, very different. I'm the hub leader here for Savory, but I spend a lot of time behind a desk, uh, working on program management, program design, um, but really what what we're focused on is helping farmers.

Um. Our, our program is shifting, uh, really opening up our doors again to do face-to-face trainings with farmers in the area, to help them take a step towards more regenerative principles, practices, um, again, for quality of life, for, you know, all kinds of reasons, but, you know, profitability, uh, ecosystem health.

And we really, we feel that, again, experiential education. Having farmers come here and see the type of work that we're doing, the steps that we took to regenerate the land, um, is really important and could be helpful, uh, as farmers start this transition process. We also, you know, we do some R&D, so research and development. Farmers aren't, most farmers aren't in a situation where they can take on the burden of running research and, and development trials to figure out, you know, efficiencies or, uh, better ways of doing things better, better animal welfare, better feed supplies. Um, so we have started doing some small r and d projects.

One of the ones that we're super excited about, because we work so much in pasture poultry, is, um, incorporating a new product called Rova Barn. Which if you're, if you know, um, gosh, Paul at Pasture Bird, you know, his huge, yeah, his huge movable. Barns.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: we have, we started out with schooner that a tractor pulls forward every single day, but these are big, um, they're, they hold 500 chickens per schooner. Um, and yes, pasture poultry can be profitable, at what cost?

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: in my opinion, it's the cost of quality of life for the farmer. I can't think of anything harder than raising chickens on pasture. Um, and I have a lot of like. Speculations about why that job is so hard. I mean, when we're using the schooner that we were using, there's lots of hand carrying in five gallon buckets with feed and filling all the feeders and needing two people to move the schooner up one length so they have fresh grass, person on the tractor, person behind, scooching the birds up so they don't get run over. So working with UCO Robotics in Canada, um, we have purchased three rover barns, um, which are solar powered, uh, chicken tractors that hold 700 birds per uh, chicken tractor. Um, and it's taken away all of the. You know, hand feeding, everything is automated. Waters a feed bin on the outside that you fill once a week instead of walking in with five gallon buckets and, uh, a barn that you could be watching Netflix and move from your phone at home. Um, so really cutting down on labor and increasing efficiencies. And, you know, these barns are probably $34,000 a piece, which is like, woo. Well, the other barns were five to $6,000. But then you add the tractor, then you add the second person for labor, and then

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: the hours that you're hand feeding.

And then you add all of those, the, oh gosh, pulling the hoses, which is the worst job in the whole world, like pulling hoses across the field. You add all of that up and, and, know, $32,000, you can, you can make that back very quickly

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: a. better quality of life.

Bobby: Yeah, and that's kind of what I was wondering is when do those things start to pay off? Because I've seen the videos Paul has posted, I think he's posted 'em on. LinkedIn, uh, he's fairly, um, active there. If, if folks aren't familiar with Paul Grief, pasture bird, incredible pastured poultry brand, they're land to market verified, they're, uh, great folks.

Um, highly recommend following them and, and eating their chicken. It's tasty. Um, but yeah, when I see these things I'm like, this is an incredible piece of technology. It's this massive robot, you know, chicken tractor that is just automatically advancing itself and it's huge. It's very impressive. Um, but my initial thought was, that's gotta be so incredibly expensive.

There's no way that this is realistic to do unless you're operating at such a major scale. But you know, the pieces that you're bringing up about what you're saving on labor and the cost of, you know, a typical chicken tractor in general, and the tractor itself and all of those pieces. That, that makes sense.

Have you guys, um, it makes me think of the. Um, the virtual fencing collars that folks are getting into now, have you guys played around with that at all? 'cause a similar thing comes to mind of like the price per collar and the price per head that you have to pay a monthly subscription for. Have you, um, thought about testing that as part of your RD efforts at all?

Donna: sure. We work with Gallagher pretty closely and we test a lot of their products. We've tested things like the tumble wheels and um, different types of fencing, different types of chargers. My understanding is that. The tightly bunched we keep our, our flock and our herd is sort of prohibitive because the distance isn't big enough. They're getting, they're getting, they're getting the signal. Too often they would be getting the signal too often, um, that they're too close to the fence because the fences are so close to one another that not a lot of movement for moving and for grazing now in an area that, you know, you've got utilizing much more land, um, for your animals.

And I can see that that would be really useful. Like when I think about out west or somewhere like that. Uh,

Bobby: Yeah.

Donna: brittle environment. Yeah,

Bobby: Yeah. Uh, how big are your average paddock sizes, or how often are you moving them? Just to add some color to, to that

Donna: So we move them every single day. Um.

Bobby: Okay.

Donna: Yeah, so we move them every day. And right now, I'd have to ask Lizzie, 'cause she manages this, but I think they're about 1.5 acres, maybe 1.2 acres.

Bobby: Oh, wow.

Donna: tight.

Bobby: Yeah.

Donna: Um, but we open it up. I mean, this is not, obviously, we're always monitoring, we're always observing.

We're, I mean, our, our staff is out there with the animals all the time. So adjusting all the time based on the conditions and what the animals need, what the land needs.

Bobby: How, how does it work? You know, so you manage a, a staff, you yourself have gone through various levels of training and advanced training to really hone your skills in the regenerative space. How do those skills pass down to staff that is implementing it on the ground, who perhaps hasn't been through those advanced courses out at West Bijou or, um, you know, they're kind of just following orders, like, how do the feedback loops work there?

Donna: Yeah. Well, first of all, I would say that I don't think, yeah, there, we don't have any staff that are following orders because they're

Bobby: Okay.

Donna: gifted and talented. And mean, I really feel like the staff at the ranch, I feel so, so thankful that I get to work with the folks that I do get to work with. So, very active learners.

Um, I would say that it's a lot of, you know, I'm thinking about when Lizzie Parker started. She really has taken an interest in holistic management. She's taken holistic management, she's been trained in EOV. Um, she's puts all the data into the platform, the EOV platform. She's an avid reader, like always reading everything from, you know, Allen Nation to whatever she's devouring material. Um. So, you know, she's picking it up quickly. She's utilizing lots of different, uh, tools that she has. Um, but Mo obviously following our holistic plan grazing and, and holistic management always in mind, thinking about the context, thinking about our North Star, thinking about, um. of those things, ecosystem, health birds that we have everything.

And always thinking about, you know, what are the unintended consequences of this decision? And running it through the dec decision making framework. Um, other people on the team are at different levels, so some, most all have taken the online savory course courses. Uh, we've got two people I hope that will be going through the holistic management training here. Uh, we meet as a team, um, I don't attend all those meetings, but they meet as a team once a week and talk about the grazing planning. Um, so it's lots of open communication. Um, and also, you know, like one thing that we did is, is we sort of switched things up based on the social aspect of, of our work. So Christine was feeling like Christine is our livestock manager. Um, she oversees most of the staff now and she was feeling like the sheep because of. amount of time that we have the sheep on the ranch and they have a, a processing date and we need to get them to a certain weight, um, that we're gonna graze them ahead of cattle. So we did, we were doing a leader follower system. Um, and I think it's sort of a, I don't know, I just sort of think it's sort of a given, like when we think about leader follower systems, that cows go first and she was bringing up, like, I feel like the sheep should go first. And we had a conversation where we're like, well, why not? You know, why, why are cows king? Like, okay, let's put the sheep in first. Um, and it's worked pretty well. Like it's worked well and, and the weights of our lambs are excellent. And yeah, I would say that, you know, each, each individual that works on the livestock team, regardless of position, Is just active in their learning and very passionate about what they're doing.

And not just about livestock production, but about how livestock production, um, either improves the land based on our behavior, based on our decision making or has the opposite effect. So, yeah.

Bobby: Yeah. Speaking of your team at Heifer, my understanding is that it is a all female management team at the ranch, and that's surprising given that AG is a predominantly male dominated industry. And so I'm curious, um. What that's been like. Um, has that been rewarding, challenging, um, a non thing to discuss that's just like, yeah, of course.

You know, how, how is that?

Donna: I, I think we think it's really normal, but when we're interviewed or called by a company that wants to, right now we're talking with a company about wear for women, and they're very interested in our team. Um, I think that it's not

Bobby: I.

Donna: I feel like I've always been really fortunate, like at Warren Wilson, even back in the early nineties, you know, it was, it, well I say that, but then I was one of the, I was the only woman, tractor driver, so not so much.

But, um, I feel like I've always been in, um, environments that were, uh, pro women regardless of what occupation they wanted to go into and, um, celebrating diversity and all those kinds of things. I do think it is quite unusual to be producing at the level that we're producing, um, and have the management of the livestock.

So not of the whole ranch, but of the livestock and the ag team be. Uh, women managers. And what's even more interesting than that, in my opinion, is every person that is in a leadership position on our livestock team started as a volunteer when we used to have a volunteer program at Heifer. So Christine started as a volunteer.

She's gone on to, um, she has a master's degree in parasitology of sheep. Um, so, uh, Sam Noble started as a volunteer. She worked for large poultry, uh, brooding operation, and now she manages our poultry. And Lizzie Parkers started here. Um, really interested in holistic management and in cattle production. Um. I think coming in through the window of biohacking and interested in what she was eating. Um, and then just sort of, she's a school teacher, science teacher for 17 years.

Bobby: Hmm.

Donna: yeah, so she's managing our cattle herd and our bees. Um, and then we have farm hands, and our farm hands are men. So, yeah, I think it's, I think it is pretty interesting.

Bobby: It's interesting. And I would also say it's not terribly uncommon from what we're seeing in the regenerative space. There's something about the mindset, like the abundance mindset, the nurturing mindset that is required to be successful in regenerative ag. I feel like there is a greater proportion of women in the regenerative ag space than there is in conventional ag.

And I don't have numbers to back this up. This is more just when I go to events, when I go to ranches, you know, the people that I see there tends to be a greater proportion of women involved in this. And I think, you know, getting back to, you know, just like the nurturing qualities that, you know, women are generally better at than men.

You know, we're good at dominating things with our strength. I mean, not to be so stereotypical here, but um, you know, there is something, uh, that. I don't know. Women seem to excel in the regenerative space and I think it's very welcomed and you see that in the makeup of a lot of different teams. You know, even at Savory Institute, you know, I think for the longest time we were a female dominated team.

I don't know what the breakdown is right now. Might be half and half, but I digress.

Donna: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really interesting observation and one that I would concur with. Like when I think about leaders in regenerative agriculture right now, some of the ones that I think of, of course you've got your gay browns, but there's also, you know, another, another level, another arena of leaders in regenerative, uh, agriculture that are women that I respect immensely.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: yeah, I agree.

Bobby: Yeah. In terms of, um, thought leaders in the space or, you know, thought leaders in general. Who do you go to for inspiration? Like do you have any mentors or people whose work you follow closely? Uh, outside of holistic management, um, where do you find inspiration? Like what sort of books are you reading?

Where, where do you, um, you know, find new information?

Donna: Yeah. Um, I listen to a lot of podcasts, um, but I would say in terms of like people that I really, really respect and could reach out to, um, you know, one of my first, I, I feel like I found Joel Saladon before he was like super well known, and he came and visited Heifer Ranch and spent the day with us, I'm sorry, heifer Farm and Massachusetts, and spent the day with us and, um, was, wouldn't say a mentor, but definitely a huge influence on me. Um, then there's the whole acres, USA, there's the, the. Allen Nation books that I was reading before. You know, I, I didn't know any other farmers that were reading this material. And honestly, like thinking back to Hickory Nut Gap Farm, I, every month I couldn't wait for hordes, dairyman to come. Uh, do you know Hordes,

Bobby: No, I don't.

Donna: huge, it was huge.

Red, red cover. Um, and it was just a, it was like this, uh, monthly magazine about dairy farming, but really progressive, like cover crops and, you know, apple cider vinegar and the, you know, that were very non-traditional at the time. So I've always been, I've always been very interested in, um. Um, looking at maybe non-conventional ways of doing things.

I think I always look for non-conventional ways of doing things. Um, will, Harris is, I, I love Will. Um, yeah, so I've gotten to know Will quite well and Jenny, um, and I can contact him, you know, for anything. He gave me really good advice about, uh, I got covered up in sugars a

Bobby: Hmm.

Donna: ago and he gave me good advice about treating those.

But, you know, just in terms of connecting with him as often as possible, I would say that, that someone that I am just absolutely gives me goosebumps every time I hear him speak and is becoming a friend. Is, is, uh, Tre Kates. So, you know, Trey obviously has worked for the Savory Institute now runs nRhythm.

I'm part of the fellowship and nRhythm. I think that for me, know, holistic management, um, thinking about how nature functions and holes and patterns has expanded to how does this work in our organizations and our institutions, and then how does it work in ourselves, in our health, in our relationships, um, because it's all connected.

We, we are a part of nature and way that nature functions is the template for everything. So.

Bobby: your work. Lately has, uh, extended beyond your work at the ranch. I know you've traveled a bunch. You were recently in Guatemala and Honduras, uh, or working with producers from Guatemala and Honduras, um, and perhaps elsewhere. Um, what's that all about? Like how does someone whose job is director of Regeneration at a ranch in Arkansas, what brings you out to, to Latin America to work with producers out there?

And what are you hoping to achieve with that work? Or what have you achieved with that work?

Donna: Yeah, I mean, I, I think I would take a step back and think about like Heifer International as a whole. We're going for, through a transformation as an organization to really think about things like. A systems based approach in our and how we function and thinking about our, um, program model. Um, does our program model work?

And you know, when often when you hear someone speak about the mission of Heifer International, it will end at to end hunger and poverty. But there's the caring for the earth in this transformation of our program model that, you know, the need to really focus on the caring for the earth. 'cause if our, if our job is to, to help farmers, uh, grow food, nutrient dense food, and, um, be paid for that and have a, a high quality of life, then we have to have an ecosystem that's functioning well enough to produce food. Um, so really heifer as an organization has that caring for the earth aspect and moved it more central. So that we're always thinking about that in the context of our work and that it can't be a tag on, and it, it has to be integral to all the work that we do in the 19 countries, um, where we're currently working. So Heifer, I I would say that, um, heifer Ranch has been somewhat of a leader, um, within the organization in moving quickly towards more regenerative, uh, implementing regenerative principles and then implementing practices based on those principles that has, would, I don't know, I don't wanna, I would say the organization has noticed the work that we're doing and realizes that, has realized that there's a lot of power in training of trainers. And in ecosystems that are, that are similar, let's say Honduras in the United States, well at least in, in Arkansas, um, we're both working with farmers who are grazing cattle. but how we manage the land is different. So let's get together and let's talk and let's look at each other's systems. my job really has shifted a little bit and it's something that I really love to visiting different countries and working with them through trainer of trainer programs to implement things like holistic plan grazing. and the one thing that I really love is the monitoring. So we're not able to implement EOV programs in Honduras or Africa or but we can go in and implement. And I really like Savory's, uh, basic monitoring protocol bring kits to farms in those countries. Honduras is really where that's taken off, um, and, and teach families because in Central America and Honduras, um, or South America, um, it's really a male dominant, dominated, uh, you know, occupation to be a farmer. Um, so one of the questions that I had was, how could we possibly get, because we're also focused on working with women and youth,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: that's also part very much central to the work that we do. So how could we bring in and get women and youth involved in ranching and working with family members, their husbands, uh, sons, um, with the cattle industry and monitoring. really, really important because we're teaching people, you know, this is holistic plan grazing and this is what your ecosystem is, how it's gonna respond if done well. Um, but how if you don't have a baseline and you don't go in and you don't look at that data year after year, you don't know where you're going. Um, and we've started that in Honduras and it's really taken off. So I went and I trained the Honduras team, um, and they are now working with their farmers and they work with thousands of farmers. Um, and so these farmers are learning basic monitoring and I have a good friend Carlos, um, and he'll send pictures, you know, either of a training that's going on or a farm family doing monitoring or the kits that they're making of basic monitoring tubs full of equipment that are going to farms.

And I find that to be, um, yeah, just awesome.

Bobby: Yeah. Is there anything that you've picked up from them that you then bring back to the ranch so that it's not just one way?

Donna: I would say, being flexible with equipment when we go, when don't have to have the greatest tools ever to do this monitoring. It can be a stick with a string tied on it for your transect, or it can be utilizing, taking, taking soil samples with a shovel, and it can be using a hula hoop and adjusting a little bit instead of a, you know, PVC pipe square. Um. But I think, you know, like in Honduras for example, there's a dry season and a wet season. So learning about that and then how they manage that, that's very different from here. Um, learning just about, you know, their ecosystem and how previously before implementing holistic plain grazing due to culture and, and, and requirements, they would be move, you know, removing trees as they needed, grazing land. So lots and lots of tree removal, which was leading to, um, horrible ecosystem issues. Water, you know, water retaining, retainment, those kinds of things. Um, and with holistic, plain grazing, they've been able to. Stop cutting down trees and they have more forage than they're able to utilize. So, um, I would say that's a generality, but that's the feedback that I hear.

So that's, you know, seeing changes in the ecosystem, hearing stories about wildlife that they haven't seen in many, many years. Somebody I was in Honduras and I, I can't remember what farm it was, but were talking about seeing, um, a jaguar come back to their land, which they hadn't seen in forever. So stories like that, um, of ecosystem recovery, which leads to habitat is very conducive to animals in that ecosystem. And

Bobby: Will you be? Will you be traveling to more of the countries that, uh, heifer works in to, to do this type of work? Um, you know, like I think back to, you know, you were talking about Trey and when he used to be, uh, the Chief Operating Officer here at Savory, and I remember we, back when I started at Savory, we had a, a special project that we were working on, um, with Heifer International in Senegal.

And it was some massive government owned property. It was like 150,000 hectares that was walled off.

Donna: Mm-hmm.

Bobby: And we were brought in essentially as the technical service providers of, Hey, this land is totally denuded, overgrazed, savory, come in and help us fix it. And so we came in, did an assessment and we're like.

Yeah, this is desolate, but all right, here's the steps. Here's let's, let's get working on it. And we worked on it for, oh, I don't know, maybe two years or so. But then basically government corruption got the best of it.

Donna: Yeah.

Bobby: you know, new government official came in and they were like, no, this isn't my project.

I don't like it. You're done, you're outta here. And so nothing really transpired long term there, which is unfortunate because I know Heifer was really hopeful for that because, uh, the scale of the project. And we were hopeful because Senegal and Western Africa in general is a place that we haven't had much of a foothold.

And so, um, you know, that was an opportunity. So it was unfortunate that the social weak link caused that project to fail, but such is life. Um, and now. You know, years later come to have not just a project where Savory Institute is partnering with Heifer International, but Heifer is a savory hub. You know, you're kind of like our Trojan horse within Heifer, I would say.

And you're out there, um, you know, working with the different communities all over the world. So, you know, I would say that's way better than, you know, us trying to do it through a project. I'd rather have a hub who can, uh, go out and, and have those close ties with folks. Um, yeah. So, so what does, um, the future look like for, for more of this, uh, international work that you've started on?

Donna: Yeah, so we are in the process of hiring a country director. So traditionally have, uh, country programs have a senior director that sort of oversees the whole thing, and we have not had that for a while. And we've been functioning under a shared leadership, uh. Structure. That's been me, I've been in that.

And then, uh, two other people. Um, we've decided that we do want to have a senior director. Um, and that search is, is sort of winding up now. I think it's down to a couple candidates. Um, so I think that, you know, my work within regenerative agriculture, I, I think there's still gonna be opportunities, um, to travel to other country programs, um, to work in regenerative agriculture and the, and the project that you talked about in Senegal, that's actually being looked at again.

Um, the government apparently is, you know, receptive to opening it back up. I think Heifer is possibly working, uh, with, the community to, to evaluate if that could take off again. Um. I think there's opportunities, you know, like I went to Kenya and again, met with several communities that have worked, uh, with Holistic Planned Grazing with the Savory Institute. Um, I was in a community and one of the community members ran up and said, Alan Savory was here and he taught us this and this and this, and that was just so cool. Um, so I think there's opportunities there. Um, yeah, I think there'll be opportunities coming up because again, the caring for the earth thing has become so central to what we're doing. Um, that, and looking at it not just through a sustainable lens. Like we wanna make things better. We have to make things better. So I, I do believe that in my, you know, next year, I guess our new fiscal year started, um, I think there'll be continued international travel.

Bobby: That's awesome. Well, I, I hope you get to travel around more. Um, and that's exciting that the, the Senegal project might be kick starting back up. We might have to discuss that a little bit offline just to, um, discuss some of the nuances of, of what happened there or some of the challenges that, uh, I think we were looking at in terms of.

Essentially it's a, it's a fenced off property. And so they're like, okay, let's come in and do holistic planned grazing through this huge parcel of land. But the reality is, is there are holes cut in the fence everywhere because the land is so degraded everywhere throughout Senegal that people are just desperate to find grass.

And so they're like, Hey, I see some grass over on the other side of that fence, we're gonna cut a hole in it. And so, um, you know, folks are fairly nomadic moving about and they gotta get grass wherever they can find it. And so there's a lot of community development work that needs to happen before any of the actual grazing planning and infrastructure planning.

Donna: Yeah,

Bobby: Honestly, that's a huge component of this work that I think a lot of people don't realize. I think a lot of people jump straight to the grazing planning and they're like, all right, how many animals do I need? How do I bunch 'em up? You know, how often do I move 'em? Um, and those are important questions to ask, but those are not usually the first questions to ask.

You got a lot of work, uh, to do ahead of that, especially in areas like Africa where there are communal grazing lands. The development work you have to do to get the community on board can be years of work before any sort of grazing plans are put in place.

Donna: I, I could not agree with you more, and one of my first observations when I was in Kenya is is not, is not. An ecosystem health issue. This is not a grazing issue. This is a social conundrum on thousands of years of cultural where we've got nomadic grazers going through, just like you said, looking for land to graze.

Um, yeah. And until, you know, until a system can be, until the community, not a system, until the community can come together and come up with a different structure, a different system for doing this, where the pasture, the forage actually can recover, truly recover before it's re grazed. There is no, there's no grazing plan on the face of the earth that's gonna fix that Yeah. I just see it as being a social, I don't wanna say a problem, because it's, it's not, it's not that it's a problem, it is a, it's their culture, you're talking about changing the culture of a community, of a, of, you know, a country. I think that's, that's really tricky.

Bobby: Yeah, and that's the, what we're talking about with all of this.

Donna: Mm-hmm.

Bobby: This work isn't just grazing planning, it's not just soil health. There is a huge focus on the social aspects and the people

Donna: Mm-hmm.

Bobby: because you can have the perfect grazing plans, but if at the end of the day there are social weak links in your chain, things are gonna break and it's not gonna work in the long run.

And you need to strengthen those weak links before you do anything else. Well, you,

Donna: Yeah.

Bobby: the log jams first, and we go through that in the holistic management framework. Then you get to your weak links. But,

Donna: Right.

Bobby: that's, uh, holistic management jargon. For anyone that's not familiar, my apologies, I try to avoid the jargon as much as possible.

But, hey, Don has been to two advanced training, so we'll go to it. So. You got a lot going on. It seems like, um, the work you've done at the ranch has really transformed things since you've joined years ago. You're, you're getting into more of the international work and there's like this pollination between international, you know, heifer International and Heifer USA.

Donna: Mm-hmm.

Bobby: What else is coming down the pipe? What, is there anything as you look forward that you're excited about or, or things that you're planning on doing or that you're gonna be doing,

Donna: Mm-hmm.

Bobby: either at Heifer or or beyond? What's the future got in store for Donna Kilpatrick?

Donna: Something that I've become very, very interested in, I would say on the ranches, um, incorporating more trees because we have many pastures that are very, uh, open.

It's hot here. So thinking about trees as. Um, a way to increase forge, forge availability for animals, um, but al also a carbon sink and also provide shade. And also we know that the more diversity that we have in our ecosystem, the better, the more resilient. So just thinking about, okay, we're doing well, but how can we, how can we build this biodiversity?

When I, you know, we work with Audubon and we've had lots and lots of birds, um, come back. I think I've heard maybe today six different Bob White quail, which is a huge indicator that our ecosystem is, we're doing the right, we're, we're managing our pastures and our fence rows in a way that is encouraging Bob White quail to come and, and nest here, which is really exciting. Um, things that I'm interested in, like I said before, um, you know, just this idea of. not being just about agriculture, but being about, you know, how do we regenerate communities? How do we regenerate ourselves? Um, and so for me, you know, as I, when I think about retiring, it's not that terribly far away. Um, what do I wanna accomplish in, let's say if I have 10 years left, uh, of work, what do, what do I want those 10 years to look like and what kind of growth? Um, I, I would say that right now I'm in a, I'm in a season of deep, you know, just like inward looking and thinking and thinking about the cycles of nature, um, and how I can become the best me possible.

And. Yeah, so lots of retrospection, lots of work, I would say. Um, lots of looking at how life can expand and be more abundant and be. More healthy and, uh, create the conditions, uh, for life. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm doing the work and it's something that I find really exciting. I'm taking chances that I haven't taken before.

I'm doing things that are uncomfortable. Um, I'm doing this thing called the Hoffman Process in January, um, which is a, uh, week long program in California. Just a really deep dive into looking at patterns. You know, we were, we, earlier we were talking about, you know, nature functions and holes and patterns, and we as humans also create patterns.

So, um. Those patterns can be good and they can also be harmful. So looking at patterns in our lives that stem from childhood and thinking about, you know, do we wanna change some of those patterns? That's why I wanna go to Hoffman and I'm really excited about, about doing that. And, um, yeah, so we'll see what that's all about.

I don't know, it's very secretive. It's like a week, you go for a week and yeah, so I've been listening to the, the Hoffman, uh, Hoffman has a podcast channel with 200 and something different, um, you know, on it,

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Donna: that have gone through the process, but also other people. Like I listened to one last night that I thought was so interesting, um, Dr.

Zach Bush, and he was talking about how nature is our, our gateway and our mirror to healing. Um, so very interesting stuff from there. And just looking at. Cycles and patterns and how to shift those in a way that will bring about more abundance in my life and better relationships and that kind of thing.

Bobby: Yeah.

Donna: what I'm working on.

Bobby: Very cool. And it's, it's interesting that everything ties back to these cycles in nature and noticing that nature repeats itself and goes by patterns. And we can intentionally break patterns, we can create new patterns. And so I just love the, the contrast of, you know. Here. You know, I think most folks listening are interested in that more from an ecological perspective.

You know, the cycles of, you know, a grass species and how you optimize production across a landscape. But if you take that into the personal realm and look at what are those patterns that are happening, you know, with behavior and, you know, with relationships to, to friends and family and loved ones and how you can break harmful patterns and create new ones, it's the same, the same concepts apply, uh, no matter what domain you're, you're looking at, as long as it's living systems.

And that's, I guess, holism at the end of the day.

Donna: absolutely. It's absolutely holism and I find it, you know, it's funny, like I think that in life you go through, you go through periods where you, I mean, I think we all have periods in our life where we do a deep dive and a retrospect, and we, we ask ourselves hard questions. And I remember times within my life when I wasn't involved in, I, I wasn't thinking about wholes within wholes.

And I wasn't thinking about, um, managing for resilience and abundance and having this holistic framework. And then, and then having the nRhythm fellowship. When I go into this, you know, personal work that I wanna do, it's through a whole different lens and it is so much more rich and then so much, I mean, I feel like I have a, a different way of looking at it. Um, that feels, I to say whole, but it feels complete. And it, and it feels like, yeah, I just didn't, I didn't have the tools, I don't think, when I've tried to do this before and was trying to find a, a quick fix for whatever issue I wanted to work on. Um, yeah, I think nature provides the perfect lens to look through it.

Um, and it's been very helpful for me.

Bobby: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, we've been going for about an hour and a half, so I think I'll probably be respectful of your time. I know you have a lot going on at the ranch, so just wanted to open-ended, see if you have any last bits of advice or recommendations for folks that are getting into the regenerative ag space.

You know, you helped at a very, uh, long and storied career with a variety of different entities in the space. You know, you've been at this for quite some time, any. Tips, tricks, life advice that you'd like to leave folks with?

Donna: Yeah, I would say, I would say go, go at this small, take it. You wanna regenerate a piece of land and you have a thousand acres that you're managing. Start with a hundred and see what happens. I think that it's really tempting to, uh, bite off more than you can chew and to get super excited about something. We know that the margins in farming are so slim that I think it's important to, to take it piece by piece and then really observe, um, how you feel about those changes. Was it, was the process enjoyable? Is this something that really resonates with you? Um, how does it affect your quality of life? Um, but to go small with it, and then also, I don't know, I think it was maybe Tre Cates.

I don't remember where I heard this, but was someone that said, you know, we were talking to farmers about what they need and I don't know if this was regenerative farm. I think it was new regenerative farmers. What is the thing that they most need? And I was expecting them to say land or money, or. Uh, give me 10 cows, but their response was a friend, they need a community. Um, so I would say that, you know, reach, finding people within the regenerative movement that you can become friends with and have someone to bounce ideas off of is really important because there's a lot of, I think that socially, you know, for a conventional farmer to have conventional farmers on either side of them and to, to make a change, there's a lot of, a lot of pressure there and there's a lot of, um, yeah, just a lot of pressure and, and possibly feeling quite alone in those decisions.

So having a community is really important.

Bobby: Here, here. I will second that. Absolutely. Well Donna, I appreciate you coming on and chatting today about all the great work you're doing at Heifer. Keep it up. I will link to all the things mentioned from grassroots co-op and Hickory Nut gap to nRhythm and the various courses that you guys have coming up.

That'll all be included in the show notes.

Donna: Sure

Bobby: will have, you know, where to find Heifer Ranch online and all their social media accounts. They've got a very active YouTube channel, so check that out. Periodically, Donna will live stream from the field. I've seen that before. Uh, very impressive. So thanks again for coming and chatting with us.

Uh, appreciate it, Donna.

Donna: yeah. Thank you. This was so much fun. Yeah.

Bobby: It was

Donna: much, Bobby. Take care.

Bobby: You too. Bye.

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