The Dirt on Soil Health Policy & Legislation

Bobby: Aria McLauchlan. Welcome to the Ruminations podcast.

Aria: Bobby Gill, thanks so much. It's such a pleasure to be here.

Bobby: I appreciate you coming on and guiding us through the wonderful world of policy and legislation. I know it's everyone's favorite topic, isn't it? 

Aria: Yes. Hold on to your coffee cups, tightly, folks. We'll get through this together. no, it's, it can be, it actually can be quite a, certainly endlessly interesting, but also exciting topic 

Bobby: Yeah, I'll say I grew up in the Washington DC area, so I was surrounded by politics my entire life. I worked for the federal government for nearly a decade, at the FDA. All of that said, I don't consider myself someone who is a policy wonk who, finds themself diving into the nitty gritty of how the sausage is made.

And I have to ask where did your interest in policy come from? Especially because I think folks will probably be able to, tell, shortly as we talk. You have an Australian accent, so you know, you're an Aussie who focuses primarily on American policy related to soil health. How did all of that come about?

Aria: let's see. I, I'm fortunate enough to belong to, both countries. So I'm an American as well, and as an Australian. I have a, parent from both countries. and I was lucky enough to grow up and go to school in Australia. so I, my background, in terms of just neighbors and, friends and, surrounding community was quite a rural, agriculturally focused, environment.

but also just, folks that know the Australian bush, just an incredible, and experience living outdoors and, seeing all of the, creatures and everything, there. but I would say, policy certainly wasn't what I. Planned to be, focused on is not what I went to school for. but I, would say that the interest stems just a, focus and, a keen interest in being able to make change in, whatever system or business, issue that I care about. And I think, ultimately being involved in policy and to some degree in my personal life politics, just empowering.

It's just a place where we have so much more agency. and that's kind of part of the, cool part of the democratic process is that we can just get involved, of our backgrounds. so I would say that, that the sort of genesis started there 

Bobby: Was there any one particular moment or a piece of legislation or, what was the driving factor that really caused you to say, oh, policy is something that I'm gonna put my full weight behind and, I'm gonna start an organization that is fully dedicated to this. 

Aria: Yes. I think my, or originally my, the sort of original choice for a career was, to focus on business and brand because I was aware that, focusing on different, of sustainability or social impact or environment in ways that I was like, I can understand why folks. I want to present a message in a certain way, but I might already be sympathetic to your calls.

And even I'm a little turned off, some of that sort of like heavy green, hammer over the head, the sort of, idea of a, lecture or what have you. So that's why I was always interested in using, business and branding and communications as a good vehicle for, change for the issues that need more, love and attention. then with policy specifically, I had entered into the soil health space, and this is, I think at the end of this year, it'll be getting on into 10 years, now, which is just incredible. remarkable to think about, how long I've been talking about dirt at dinner parties. 

Bobby: Soil. Soil, not dirt. 

Aria: Soil, that's right.

but folks are, cottoning on, which is, nice. So I had, yeah, I had the opportunity to start, working on and thinking about this, issue, via another, well-known nonprofit organization in the space. The, and at that time, this is 2015, Especially working from a communications perspective, we were missing a clear call to action, in terms of what we could tell individuals or consumers, or even to some degree, farmers and other organizations.

you're interested in soil health. You understand that it's connected to all of these incredible benefits, what is the action that folks could take? And there, there was a little bit of a card before the horse, feeling. And as I got into conversations with, my partner and now co-founder Harley, really clearly identified, that there was missing economic incentives, for producers, asking farmers and ranchers to make these huge changes to their businesses and their practices, without really clear economic incentives. In some cases they're missing, that would support, folks in adopting these practices. and just in general better making the economic case, for this work is something that we thought was really important. And as, we looked around and looked at the, landscape, especially here in the US. For us, it was just a really obvious sort of driving reality that so much of the existing infrastructure and then so much of the policy of what we grow and how we grow it, is determined by federal policy.

so we really just firmly believe that if you wanna be involved changing the food and agriculture system, in, in supporting farmers and ranchers in any way that you really do have to be involved in, policy, in, in one way or another. 

Bobby: and as, someone who, I working for the Savory Institute, we work globally, and so it's hard for me and others on the team to keep track of all the updates, not just of what's happening in American policy for, soil health and better land management practices, but then also what's going on in the UK and further out in the eu.

What's happening in different countries in South America, what's happening in Africa, what's happening in Australia, New Zealand, It goes on and on And

Aria: Yeah.

Bobby: is so much to keep track of. So I know that whenever I get a policy question, I refer folks directly to you and I say, don't ask me. Go ask Aria and Harley.

They're the ones over at LandCore who can handle all of this. why don't you actually tell the folks a little bit about LandCore? so what is this organization that you started, what are you guys up to? 

Aria: Yeah. Thank you. very generous, with those, referrals, so we always appreciate that. But LandCore is.

Bobby: It's just 

easier for 

me to just pass along the referral. Honestly, it's just laziness,. 

Aria: We're, not at all. we're here to be a resource. We're, here to, help folks out as, best we can. so LandCore is, a nonprofit organization, that Harley Cross and I co-founded in 2017. We have a mission to advance soil health policies and programs that create value for farmers, businesses, and communities. and as I shared with our origin story, we are looking for constantly looking for ways to advance, better economic incentives that can support producers here in the US and adopting soil health practices, and better making the case. And, we really feel that, doing that through federal policy is an extremely important lever of change. so we do work both identifying and advancing our own specific, policy priorities. And we can touch on those in a, bit, also. We do help to orient, organizations, other stakeholders, whether it's a, group of funders, a group of, other organizations focused on conservation, like, food and, food and clothing, companies, for example, in identifying where the policies are in, the federal space. helping folks to exert their, influence that way. 

Bobby: Yeah. Now you've said, you've mentioned a few times already the economic case for better soil health. Is that the main avenue, for impacting change? Because, the economic case could be seen as something very different from the environmental case. They're obviously one and the same.

When you're taking a holistic approach to this, what is environmentally appropriate will also be economically appropriate. but. Why is it that you are focusing primarily on the economic case for this. 

Aria: Yes. I think that, first and foremost, in, in addition to farmers, and ranchers connection to the landscape, they're also running businesses. this is very rarely just, an act of, stewardship or, a land management in and of itself. It's, a business, first and foremost for folks. and Both in order for farmers to be able to show up at, at all, be able access land, to sustain their farming businesses, to maybe not need to take, one or two or three additional off-farm jobs in order to sustain themselves. then, as I indicated, being able to, folks are on a sort of track of, a more conventionally managed, and agriculture system, being able to transition to make those changes to their businesses and practices is quite a big undertaking. a lot of both actual, and then I would say also perceived risk. and so being able to show farmers really clearly, that there are economic, not only economic upsides, but potentially even real gains, real profitability, real business resilience to be gained. I think that. That is just first and foremost really important to farmers. and then I would also add that, while there certainly are, who are on the land, and farming because they see, the, benefits to nutrition, to community, to, in their local environments, that there are plenty of folks who are not motivated by that.

And there are many folks who have found their way into the space of holistic management or soil health or what have you, of some of those wonderful sort of environment mental environ benefits that we see that's not necessarily the message that is going to resonate with farmers first and foremost.

So I think it's also just meeting folks where they're, and, speaking their, language and both soil health as a framing as well as, economic benefits of soil health, I think, to, resonate with folks fairly universally. 

Bobby: Yeah, and I think a lot of folks, if you would ask them if they prefer the carrot or the stick, most people would rather prefer the carrot, to have an incentive rather, than some sort of, punishment or, penalty, for, land degrading practices. that's the case for what, drives change with the farmers.

What about for policymakers? What resonates most with policymakers when you're talking to them? 

Aria: I think as you say, with the carrot, that's the whole name of the game of, policymaking for agriculture here in the US. The, sort of the broad consensus, is that what is both needed, effective, appreciated, going to fly with policymakers and then ultimately be received in a federal agency and received. 

by farmers and be successful are those voluntary, initiatives and incentives and, things that are like local or state led or contextual so that farmers can shoot, pick and choose what works for them. So I think policymakers are very sensitive to those, needs and they're one and the same. there's also, zoomed out from a, kind of purse strings, perspective. The overall, of the federal budget or, the cost of some of the major, pieces of farm legislation and the farm bill, being the major one here in the US that sort of total cost of the farm bill is a constant, source of conversations. So someone might come in and just be like, oh, if we just drop hundreds of millions of dollars or billions of dollars on farmers, we could do all of these amazing things.

And true. But whether or not passing an expensive, proposal like that is, is, possible or even advisable is, a question. Finding ways to have innovative, know and low cost policy proposals is something I think that resonates, certainly with, members in Congress. but then it, I think it also ties through, into, back into what works for the farmers, which is asking a question about how can we just get out of their way, remove, policy barriers and just unlock natural, genius and, innovation of farmers and ranchers who know what's best on their land. 

Bobby: You've dealt with a lot of policy makers. Is that correct? In terms of, going to Capitol Hill, walking into offices, having sit down meetings with them to talk about specific bills that are, being considered or, helping helping them draft language for bills that you know, you might be working on together.

Can you walk us through what it's like to, walk into a congressional office in Capitol Hill? Like, how does that happen? What does, how does the meeting go? are you mainly talking to the congressmen or are you talking to their staff? Who are the people that are actually making decisions? Are they actually paying attention to what you're saying?

do they really understand the true opportunity that lies with improved soil health? Like, how does all that look from an outsider's perspective? I. 

Aria: Yeah, it's a great question. it's definitely an experience. folks who have, to either a state or federal capital to, to lobby or to meet with, representatives and their, staff to talk about an issue. it's, it can be quite an experience. folks are getting dressed up and dressed and wearing their better, looking suits.

Although I've seen plenty of farmers and ranchers keep their hat on, and I think like that. we like to see those folks come in and, be themselves in those, spaces. So that's always fun. and yeah, we are primarily, as I was saying at the beginning with the, sort of democratic process, it is surprisingly, I think, accessible, to reach out to, a member of Congress, certainly anyone who represents you personally. then also, Members who are interested in a particular issue. in our case, for example, we would, with, and often focus on, members of Congress who are members of either the House or Senate Agricultural Committees. regardless of what state or district, representing, they have, been elected to, to serve on these, committees.

And so we'll target those folks and say, Hey, we have some, policy ideas and recommendations on, soil health, on agriculture on the farm Bill. is based on our listening to farmers and ranchers across the country and other organizations. So very often we're taking a sort of broad set of the issues that we hear out in the world and then funneling, down a, few sort of select, facts, figures, farmer stories, issues that, Say, economic statistics or, adoption rates of say, cover crops or another soil health practice in, in that member's, state. And bringing all that together to share where we think the opportunity is. We will also share our kind of approach to policy making. So say, we're LandCore, we're a nonprofit organization. Our approach to policy is focused on, as I said, no-cost voluntary initiatives that aren't about expanding government or about new regulations, but are about supporting producers helping secure their, bottom line. so we try to meet members, and their staff where they're at and take it from there. I have heard, these can be long days.

You're walking up and down the halls of, the house and senate buildings and trying to find the right office and trotting around and it can be, tiring, but it's also exciting. I've had a staffer say, at least all of your meetings were on the same topic. it reminder that, staff and members are just dealing with a huge kind of deluge of issues in any given day. And they're super, super busy folks. so it, it isn't, yeah, it's an interesting opportunity and, we like to to get in there as often as we can or to, work with farmers as well, to, to have folks here directly from them that those meetings are always the best. 

Bobby: Do you feel that the potential of soil health is truly understood by American lawmakers? Or is this something that they hear, okay, here's another advocacy group who's coming forward. They've got some ideas. Okay, we're gonna, we'll write it down and consider it, and maybe we'll do something small, to, help you out.

But, where do they stand in terms of, truly understanding what lies ahead of them for improved soil health? 

Aria: I, I think initially you would be right to, to have that sort of, skepticism about, how much are they're really understanding. And I think, of course, there's always more to do. both members of Congress and their staff do turnover. So that can be a little bit of a challenge where you can develop a relationship with ship with someone, and then, they change out, then you need to, start again.

So that's, I think that's part of why policy organizations just need a lot of sort of resource and, support because there is this sort of ongoing, educational work that's happening in the background that said, LandCore has a federal, soil health, Bill Tracker that tracks, bills that have been introduced into Congress that would have some impact on soil health and resilience, and it was something like over 250 bills that were introduced in the previous, Congress. So the sort of the previous, two years that had some impact on so health and resilience. But it's just a tremendous increase, on where we were even a, handful of years ago. So I think the number of, folks on both sides of the aisle and, we've really seen that ramp up in the last couple of months. there is this connection that folks are starting to make between soil health and human health, and the health of our food being directly tied to healthy soil. We're also starting to see, I think, the beginnings of a real understanding about soil health as a, risk mitigation, strategy. And I'd love to touch on that with you a little bit more. think the sort of. as a carbon sink has also been, surprisingly well adopted by both, again, on both sides of the aisle, maybe for different reasons. I think there's more of an environmental and climate perspective the left, but on both sides, you're seeing, folks recognize the business opportunity of carbon markets, of ecosystem service markets of sustainable aviation fuel, grown with, feed stocks from, That lower carbon intensity feedstocks is the, term that they're using for it, for sustainable aviation field, these are like real hard, markets and economic incentives for producers. Maybe it's not the reason that they get in the game, but it certainly is a signal, about a direction that they can go in.

so those kinds of opportunities for farmers, for rural districts, is just really undeniable and we've seen a huge sort of injection of support and capital for that in the last six months, a year, a couple of years. it really has been quite a noticeable, increase long way to go and lots of progress. 

Bobby: it's great to hear all the momentum, that's happened in recent years. let's, focus in a little more closely on some of those main levers or those buckets that you were just speaking to. So you were mentioning risk mitigation, soil as a carbon sink, aspects of human health, just better, more profitable businesses.

let's start with risk mitigation, tell us about risk mitigation and, why that matters from a policy perspective.

Aria: So a lot of folks anecdotally I think, understand on any given farm and ranch that if they are building, their soil health, that they're, building their resilience, especially in terms of flood and drought, they're just more able to hold onto, water when it rains and to be able to better be buffered through dry conditions of, drought. And so we, have that understanding anecdotally. but from our observations, we came to realize that the institutions that are in the business of assessing and quantifying risk, like our agricultural lenders and insurers and policy makers are not necessarily taking those risk mitigating benefits, into account when a farmer goes to, their local lender, that lender is usually looking at traditional, credit metrics and financials and isn't necessarily, doesn't. Understand, or even really have the ability to quantify, what that risk reduction might be, and even if you had some sort of inherent understanding, of, and trust and belief in. Okay. Yes. Sure. soil health, is gonna mean that the producer is more, diversified and resilient and able to, weather both market and, weather events, in a, better way that, these are not institutions that are in the business of guessing. we're taking our word for it. These are folks who wanna say, okay, to what extent would this, risk mitigation benefit be true? Where, there's, both in policy and then I think on the ground there is a little bit of those practices work for that state over there, but that's not gonna work for us, in California or here in Iowa.

there's, idea and, uncertainty about. What, say cover crops or rotating, crops might be beneficial. so being able to, Demonstrate and do the research on the risk reducing benefits, of certain soil health practices is, an idea that we think, can be incorporated by financial institutions.

and then ultimately in terms of policy, USDA and, an agency called the Risk Management Agency that oversees this huge, program of, federal, crop insurance, federally subsidized crop insurance subsidized by the taxpayer. that is such a, a, it's a, big program in terms of dollars, but it's a really big lever in terms of driving what we grow and how we grow it. it's, it, and it's often required, for farmers to have crop insurance in order to be able to get loans and things like that. So the extent that the crop insurance program is Indicating its support for, say monocropping of, just single commodity, row crops. that obviously sets us in a direction. And then conversely, if USDA and risk management agency as well as private sector insurers are, Either given research or, directed to do, studies and research of their own. we think it could be incredibly powerful for those folks to, look into, do their own accounting, into the risk reducing benefits of these practices, and then if and where they find a benefit.

Again, don't take my word for it as a, soil hub advocate, but if and where you find a benefit, a, discount or an incentive for producers. And, just to give look at the world that we're imagining here, I, this could be something like a good soil discount, that's as commonplace for farmers in and ranchers in agriculture as it is a good driver discount on, your auto insurance or a nonsmoker discount on health insurance. Those kinds of discounts are not there because, the insurance companies like you or their friends or, it's just an impartial sort of business assessment based on their understanding and calculation of the, risk. and so that we think is an important sort of, of driver for, a meeting farmers where they're at.

Because again, the finance and insurance are sort of business tools that they're using in their operations every day anyway. And because it could have a really big impact on, an important mar market signal that lets producers know that this is a, less risky, direction, for them to go. 

Bobby: Yeah, I think it's an important nuance to bring up, specifically related around crop insurance. I think in the regenerative space, you'll sometimes hear folks, claim, all we need to do is get rid of commodity subsidies and it will level the playing field for regenerative ag, and that's the solution to move things forward.

How does that statement sit with you? 

Aria: Maybe, easier said than done would probably be one, one initial reaction to that. these are huge systems and a and, I think some of these row crop commodities have an important role, to play. I think whether folks are talking about getting rid of Rangelands and, Planting crops or rid of all of our row crops and, having small diversified fields and rangelands, we, we need a little bit of everything. I think that those sweeping, recommendations tend to be a little bit, tricky. And then not to mention politically and incredibly challenging, but that doesn't mean that there can't be common sense, that have, I think an argument of fiscal conservatism, them, which is to say that we don't need to be, out huge outlays, for commodity growers, especially when those folks are already, incredibly wealthy or where, some of the subsidies tend to go to the, largest farms in agribusinesses. Those are probably folks that don't already need, the leg up. are some sort of common sense cuts I think that could be made to commodity programs there. And then similarly, crop insurance is still. theory there, because, everybody eats, having a strong, domestic production, and supply of, food and feed and, fuel is, incredibly important for food and national security. and, that safety net is, challenging. agriculture is one of, agriculture is one of those few businesses where, a failure or a massive, disruption just means there, can mean that there is no crop at all. I do think that there is a role for the, safety net.

It's an, important piece for producers. but again, we could adjust that in a way that lowers the cost, for tax taxpayers gets, Has them start recognizing that risk, reducing benefit is to health practices and, producers in, at least in not blocking them, in implementing, some of these practices.

and I would say to maybe go as far as even diversifying, they're growing, which, you and I know have then has overflowing benefits for not just that farmer, but for the community and the, state that they live in as well. 

Bobby: So this work on risk mitigation, it's obviously an important lever when you're talking with policy makers. my understanding is LandCore, you guys have developed a new tool, a risk modeling tool. You wanna tell us a little bit about that?

Aria: Yeah, 

Bobby: Yeah.

Aria: in addition to the federal policy work, which we think is really important, but we acknowledge can be a, slower, mover of change. we have also set out to, Build and develop our own, predictive, statistical, of the risk mitigating benefits of so health practices. this is, a project that we have and now convened with a wonderful, cross-disciplinary team primarily of academics. We have folks from uc, Berkeley, and researchers at Rice University in Texas, and, State University and University of Arkansas. So we're working with folks all across the, country, in different disciplines.

and so they are leading a quite a robust, research, academic research, process. They're looking at, remotely sensed, So the, the. Images that we can see from satellites of, different practices. looking at corn and, soybean fields as two dominant crops where, and frankly, where there's an availability of data.

So the study is focused, in the Midwest we have a nine state, study area that, across the, Midwest Corn Belt that we're looking at. and then they are, crunching the, data and doing this statistical analysis on whether or not, and, where and to, to what extent, practices like cover cropping, crop rotations and reduced tillage, have, an impact on, crop yields.

And so in terms of initial, findings, we still have, lots of, research still to, do in terms of our desired, scope. But even with our preliminary, initial findings, we've seen over hundreds of thousands of, fields in the state of Illinois alone that indeed when farmers are increasing, the diversity of their crops, if they're adding even a single additional crop into rotation, that in dry conditions that, yields, not only, don't take a major dip, but actually, increase a little, is quite remarkable.

the effect is a little more even quote unquote, even in normal. Normal conditions, but during those dry, more stressful events, it's really gratifying to, to see the research out. But I think many of us in this space, instinctively, know and, believe to be true that in indeed, crop yields are actually increasing a little bit, in the, stressful conditions.

So we're really pleased with that. And then, yes, we have, the research is being funneled into this online tool that's available, online now for folks to, go and, play with. it's a little wonky and nerdy, but, is a, it's a pretty robust, tool that folks can work with, and that ultimately we are partnering with different ag lenders and insurers and, to some degree policy makers to help them understand and quantify, where the risks and benefits might be and, where, and how different incentives might be, offered.

it's, a big, exciting, project that we get to work on. 

Bobby: Yeah, I saw you do a demo of it at a, at a conference recently, and it was quite impressive. so I'll just say we're, we'll put the link to that build or, the risk modeling tool, down below this video in the show notes. So if you wanna go check that out, just go into the show notes. we'll also put a link to Land Corps's, bill Tracker, because that is also a really great resource to, to go in and explore, things by Bill or to look at things by legislator to see who has introduced what, is the current status of it, what areas does it affect, land Corps's analysis of the bill and, the perceived benefits and, just discussion about it all.

it's a wealth of information. going back to the, risk modeling tool. As of right now, you're just looking at cropland. Agriculture grazing is not included in that as of right now. Is that correct? 

Aria: that's correct. our dream would definitely be able to, would be to, expand that, to look at the impact, of, managed grazing, as a, as another sort of key. So health principle and, practice that I think this community knows, better than anyone. There's a little bit of an issue of just availability, of data and maybe even a sort of, we would, I think we would need to team up with other organizations to potentially, a remotely sensed, data set that looks at the impact of, of rotational grazing, holistically managed grazing. that's a, there's lots of, I think. Work and opportunity in the science. think, we know at Michigan State and other places, there's incredible research being done on, looking more directly at the changes in the soil. and I think also looking at the economic benefits, but being able to do that as at a statistically significant level requires that remotely sense data.

So folks out there listening, we definitely welcome the opportunity to scheme and dream on that one. 

Bobby: And is one of the reasons, for that being that, cropland agriculture is a little more consistent and predictable in terms of being able to look at how does. Individual practice change, then, impact soil health conditions on a fairly homogenous landscape that is a crop field versus pasture land and range land, which is much more heterogeneous.

you will go walk through someone's pastures and, the slopes on the hillside are very different than the irrigated pastures, and it's very different than, down in the riparian area. you've got this large heterogeneity. And I know that when we look at the research, say at, soil carbon, sequestration in, in pastures, there is a significant amount of data that needs to be collected to get an accurate.

Analysis of what is actually happening. You can't just go and take a soil core at, one, two, or three locations. You need a significant volume of soil samples to get something that is statistically significant because of the heterogeneity of that landscape, and therefore it makes modeling these types of practice changes quite challenging.

Is that right? 

Aria: I think that's right. Yeah. And then, and on top of that, I think we also just need. folks to, to do the work of training the robots to, to recognize, what the, satellites are seeing. we've talked about there. I think there are different ways to potentially look at it.

Maybe, you might be able to detect forage availability. Maybe you might also look at stocking density. so there, there would be different sort of indicators that you would decide on and just do the work of, machine learning and, training. those data sets have started to uncover in this, risk model research work that sometimes the creation of, a particular data set is almost a project in and of itself, even though ultimately it's just an input, that we could then use for, modeling. and we hope to see, I think. More research and support, or sorry, more funding and support, I should say, for research and for data that can be publicly shared and that isn't locked up behind, paywalls. there are some incredible companies in the, private sector who are really growing leaps and bounds, but if only the largest, companies can afford to use that data, then, there's I think a limit to the, impact, that can be had.

and we certainly want more nonprofits and, more, researchers and then frankly just, farmers and citizen scientists to be able to, see and contribute to, and, make the data sets and the models better. that, ultimately is our goal is to have more and more folks, look at this so that the LandCore risk model isn't the one model to, rule them all, Lord of the Rings reference, but, that, USDA, that different private insurance companies, that different, lenders might ultimately develop their, own, and as I said, that to some degree is dependent on having, data that, that folks can, build on. 

Bobby: Now with modeling is predictive. It's trying to say, Hey, this is a, a practice that is changing at the landscape level and we have reason to believe that this will be the outcome. So that's the purpose of modeling so that you can have a practice based approach for, the incentives that you're gonna be providing to producers.

are you seeing a shift at all to outcomes based approaches where it's less reliant on modeling, understanding some of the challenges that exist in modeling, like we were just discussing for grazing lands? yeah. Is there a shift going from practice based approaches more towards outcomes based? 

Aria: it's an interesting question. for those who've been, LandCore for a longer time, I think you might know that we actually started with more of an emphasis on outcomes verification and then because of the direction, that we took with the risk modeling because of the availability of the remotely sensed data sets that we did have and the decision to make a, a statistical predictive model.

And, that's different than a process-based model. Some folks know the, comment model and that, that is actually looking at the changes in the soil so that there are some different modeling approaches that folks choose to use. I would say that overall it really is about the context, in which that tool is being used and what sort of either policy or economic incentive it's trying, to support. I think that there are a lot of, My sense is that some of the federal policies and legislative proposals, Benefit from a practice-based approach, A, because it's a little bit more consistent with the infrastructure that's already available. at USDA, and I'm talking about the recognized, NRCS, the Natural Resource Conservation Service within USDA, they have conservation practices that have, some definition and agreed upon peer reviewed science.

And, something that legislators and, like a county or field level officer, at a, at outpost of USDA would be able to interpret and understand and implement in a. Just achievable way. but on the other hand, we're starting to see, and then I guess like the sustainable aviation fuel with the new guidelines from the us treasury and a little bit of guidance from, USDA as well, that's also looking at individual practices. but then of course from the perspective of like the carbon and ecosystem services markets, individual outcomes make a lot more, sense for that, context or that, that scheme. So I do think it, it ultimately is maybe not so much about which approach is superior and more just about context is appropriate.

as always context of everything. 

Bobby: Absolutely. Yes. We love to hear that at Savory. Let's dive a little bit into, you mentioned the policy pri, land Corps's policy priorities. what are the policy priorities at LandCore and, what sorts of pieces of legislation are you following closely right now? 

Aria: Yes. this will sound like a little bit of a tie in to the previous conversation, but, we are, championing a piece of legislation that was originally introduced by, now leader, senate leader, John, thorn of South Dakota. as well as, the former, chairwoman of the, agriculture Senate, Agriculture Committee, Senator Sta. they had introduced a piece of legislation called the Cover Crop Flexibility, act, and that, we've seen some changes at USDA that address those sort of first part of that bill, which is around making sure that, cover crop termination dates, on, crop lands weren't impeding, too heavily. there was a second half of that piece of legislation, that would direct the USDA to do its own research into the risk reducing benefits of soil health practices. And make some sort of, about a, discount or incentive for producers who are found to be, lower risk. we noticed that, that, little, piece of that second half of the legislation had started to slip behind in the shuffle of everybody's, farm bill priorities.

And, for those who have been, following along at home, you might know that the, what was supposed to be the 2023 has been, delayed and kicked down the road. So the process for which bills will ultimately be included continues for those who, those of us who are working on this day to day. but we have been, we have picked up that piece of legislation and said, oh, this is something that is really common sense and simple. it's no, or at minimum, very low cost, proposal, that would have authority, in risk assessment and in crop insurance. This, risk management agency do, that work of, of doing its research and recommending discounts for, farmers who are found to be, adding, resilience back into the, system and, lowering the, overall cost for taxpayers. so that's something that I think we can find a bit of, ground, I would say, not just on the left and the right, but frankly as a sort of a, it's almost like a compromise approach in the Republican party itself. you have folks, on the sort of hard, who are looking to make major costs to government programs regardless of how, important they are to those sort of, farming community, terms of crop insurance.

And then you have, other more, I would say, established, players who are saying, not only do we not want cuts, this is an extremely important program, but we wanna increase the amount of spending, on, crop insurance for producers. So I, think for us, this, represents a sort of a, nice, middle ground and a way forward, and admittedly tricky political, environment.

So we're, optimistic about that and certainly welcome folks to, in, to give comments to, to collaborate, on that issue and I think there's a lot of potential there. 

Bobby: With the farm bill having been delayed so much, you said it was supposed to pass in 23, we're now in 25, two years down the road. that obviously, I'm sure is incredibly frustrating for everyone working on it, but it could potentially open up some areas of opportunity in that there are still, things to be discussed and, opportunities to really, leverage policy change for soil health in this farm Bill.

So what do you see as the greatest areas of opportunity in this, current debate over the farm Bill? Like what, what is being discussed? Where is there potential for, making change here? 

Aria: I think at the very highest, of levels, just letting Congress know that it isn't critically important to pass a farm bill, and to not let it get Lost in the shuffle of other sort of political and policy changes that are happening in dc. it is crazy. This is such an important bill to so many people.

it truly impacts everybody who eats and, and all of the folks who grow food. some folks know it also includes, nutrition, programs, like Snap. So it is a bill that, that really touches the lives of, of Americans and then, and folks, globally, as, as well. So it's just an in critically important bill and especially for farmers who are looking for certainty in their business, not having that, it's really starting to cause some harm.

So at a minimum, just the noise and the, pressure up about the importance of a Farm Bill is critical, and I also like to to say to folks, whether you're an individual farmer, especially if you have any kind of business or organization, just mapping your, influence or your, sort of map of where you might have, power and the ability to, to representatives so that's not just where you live and your personal representative.

It might be, the location of a ranch or a farm or, farmers in your supply chain if you're a business. any sort of like processing. plant or equipment, folks in, in the larger, All of those different areas and business locations, et cetera, have, who, benefit from hearing from folks about how important soil health or regenerative agriculture or holistic management, is to, to you as an individual, your farm, to your community. So just I think really continuing to show up for that issue, is so important. I think we tend to forget or minimize the impact that a single letter or phone call can, have, but it really does make, such a difference. And then I would also, say, soil health for us is not just a, an issue area.

It's a framing. It's, a messaging choice as well. and it's a great way to reach a broad range of representatives, in this congress, in this administration. But I think around, around the country and around the globe as well, it, it is a, a way to build, common ground, that is, is pretty evergreen, and can reach a lot of folks. So we certainly recommend that, framing and that approach on, with people that you're interacting with. 

Bobby: You mentioned, just the everyday concerned citizen, reaching out to their representative. don't underestimate the power of a phone call or an email. can you give a little bit of color to that? how would someone go about that? What is the proper process to do And what should someone say?

Do you have any coaching that you can provide someone who is wanting to, be a force for good here in terms of the legislative process? 

Aria: Sure. in this, for folks in the US you can use, our Federal Soil Health Bill Tracker as a starting point. we have a legislators tab. can look up, your member or another member that you're interested in and see what bills, related to soil health they are already, sponsoring. so one simple kind of email could be, I noticed that you are, co-sponsoring, this particular bill and I'm so excited about. Thank you for that. I think those, thank you messages. Keep going. Please keep working on this. Please make sure that this bill is included in the final version of the Farm Bill. even just something as simple, as that I think can go a long way. it might also be, so sorry. With the, legislators tab, you can, only, see what bills individual members are sponsoring, but then you can also click, to contact that office. and all offices, have both some, regional offices in, the members, sort of state or district as well as, their offices in dc.

So you can email, you can call, And whether it's about a specific bill or just to say, Hey, I'd like to let, the Congress, man or congresswoman know that, soil health and regenerative agriculture is extremely important to me, for these reasons. please make sure that there, is broad support for soil health and conservation programs in the upcoming farm Bill. Even just that at a high level, is something. Concrete and constructive and positive, that folks can reach out about anytime. And of course sometimes there will be more timely campaigns from different organizations that you follow to say, Hey, everyone, come on and support, this particular piece of legislation, or some other problematic piece of legislation from passing.

But truly, any time of day folks can reach out and members really do, take stock of that. And, I think especially for those who of us who care about this issue, it's important to reach out because even though we know that it's connected to food, our resilience, our communities, our local businesses, our farmers, it frankly is an issue that's lower down on the polls in terms of where voters, put the most pressure on their representatives.

So I think for those reasons, if we wanna elevate food and in the mind of policy makers to the, level of importance that we know that is has, so we have to speak up. that's an ongoing, area of work. 

Bobby: Do you think that the bipartisan nature of regenerative agriculture or, I don't know if it's correct to say bipartisan or nonpartisan, however you frame it, is that an important piece of that to, to legislators?

Aria: I

think

so, I, and I think you can come right out and say it, certainly as I'm suggesting, using the framing like soil health, might be, have some sort of broader appeal. But I think you can also say I, I work with, or I am a farmer, in this area and I vote and how my neighbor votes are different.

But we both really believe, in, in what happens when you, start focusing on the soil and you know that those of us who are lucky enough to work in this space, know, we get to interact with all sorts of folks, that, that vote all sorts of ways. And, there's just so much. There really is a genuine, shared common ground love of the land and, excitement about what happens when you start bringing back the soil. I think in a lot, of ways we're just so lucky to have this as our issue and, invite more folks to kind of come in and, see what you can accomplish by having that, that focus on soil health. 

Bobby: Yeah. Now, okay, so the Farm Bill, obviously it's the big major, area of opportunity. It's the big piece of legislation that's top of mind, front and center for all, that we're talking about with regenerative ag and soil health. are there any other bills or legislation or discussions that are happening that are flying under the radar where there might be significant area of opportunity, things that, would be helpful for folks to pay attention to and maybe make a little bit of noise about? 

Aria: Yes. Now, of course, I think for, folks, who are tuned into the context of the US and, political news, there is of course just a lot of news happening, at the moment. That's always true in a new administration, but it's especially true at the moment. So I think especially not knowing exactly when this podcast will come out, we'll keep this like relatively evergreen.

but there will no doubt be, changes, and adjustments that folks can be, paying attention to and, responding to as, as they say, see fit. in terms of legislative vehicles that kind of fly under the radar. In addition to the big every five year farm bill process, there's also the annual appropriations, bill, the spending bill that determines, the amount of money that goes towards certain programs that impact, in our case agriculture food. whether it's LandCore or another organization, focused on, policy, helping them to amplify the requests for spending, the annual appropriations process. that's something that doesn't get as much sort of news or attention, but is definitely, impacts all of us. That could be true. For example, if you're interested in agricultural research, say, showing up for the appropriations processes is really important in making sure that we at least maintain, if not increase, for, ag research. that's a great place to start. there is some conservation programs also, that are, I don't wanna get too much into the weeds, but that instead of having, mandatory, spending have, Discretionary funds that need to be, issued year through that appropriations process. that's a wonky one, but, a moment of opportunity. there are also these big, reconciliation, bills that pass. And, are very often spending changes in those.

Those can be a little bit complicated to follow, but, for organizations that are, already have their feet wet, making sure that you're keeping up with, either cuts or additions to, food and ag, programs, that, that's another important area of opportunity. And then I will just say too, of course, that, within, any federal government, and state governments, you have your, most folks have a, some sort of department of agriculture. and just getting to know what the programs are in your, state, or federally, I think are a huge area of opportunity. There are very often organizations dedicated to conservation, like a resource conservation, district, conservation service. just all sorts of different ways to advance soil health at the state level, and with some of those sort of regional, offices.

So just getting to know the infrastructure that's in your community, is, an area where folks can have, I think a disproportionate amount of, influence and, voice. 

Bobby: Outside of the USDA, are there other, agencies where there are opportunities for leverage for, soil health and regenerative ag? 

Aria: Yeah, we've started to look at, I think especially through this lens of, risk mitigation, to broach conversations with agencies like the Army Corps of Engineers, which is natural na, natural engineering, thinking about, as a, sponge. and then that's also true, I think at fema, which oversees emergency, management, preparedness as well as disaster response. and again, I think, helping more folks to think about soil and soil health as a part of their toolkit, making communities, more resilient, is something that I think is excited and under leveraged. And if folks are looking to get more involved into this space and haven't found their lane yet, I, would really encourage people to, look at the opportunities, around that.

There's just so much incredible work that, that could be done, some dedicated, dedicated push. 

Bobby: What about BLM , there's obviously a lot of grazing that happens on BLM land. Any, do you see any movement happening there? Any discussions happening? 

Aria: Yeah. Thanks for raising that. I think that's such an amazing area of opportunity, BLM and, Bureau of Land Management has this, I think historically a kind of, framing of, land uses. And, you can use public lands for, energy production. You can use public lands for grazing, you can use public lands for conservation. And I think, frankly, particularly with conservation and grazing, there's often this sort of entrenched, argument or idea that they're in opposition to one another. And I think this community knows better than anybody that, Grazing when done in a sort of holistic way, when context is taken into account, that two things can be absolutely copacetic and, really mutually beneficial for profit, for business, to the advantage of the, ranchers and, grazers that are managing that land. but also very much, to improve and hit conservation goals. so we had the opportunity to submit some, comments BLM in response to a proposed rule that they had put about out about conservation and landscape health. And, really proud of the work that we put together there that I think makes a pretty strong argument again, that these two, are, absolutely, can be in harmony and that, Little adjustments, like land leases that require, some sort of regenerative, management. and I think also potentially, could be, an area where an outcomes-based approach But certainly even just having a holistic management plan in place, as part of those, those public leases for grazing could be an incredible opportunity. so I think there, it's the beginning of that conversation, but definitely an area of, work and interest for folks and talk and collaborate with anyone who's interested in, doing more in that space. 

Bobby: Yeah, it's an interesting, mental exercise to try to think of soil health, not just through the, typical lens of production agriculture, and try to see it through the lens of everything else that touches agriculture, which, those of us in this space really appreciate the interconnectedness of land, animals, plants, people, and just how all of that works together and influences every aspect of our lives.

going to FEMA, BLM, USDA, HHS, it, seems like a case could be made in pretty much any agency. I'm sure you could get into to DOD or CIA somehow. I'm sure there's something that you could do if, you tried hard enough to find a, soil health angle. 

Aria: Yeah, absolutely. And I don't even think it's a stretch. there really are all of those connections to human health, to, to food and national security. looking at the whole amazing world of the microbiome, and the soil microbiome. there's just so much, there.

So I do think that we're on the cusp of a pretty exciting, time in, in terms of new research and new connections, validating what those of us have suspected for a little while to be increasingly true and understanding how those connections are made. So it's a wonderful time, I think, to jump into the, to the space or to deepen that work and, yeah, to, think about opportunities outside of agriculture, to, to support our food and, farming systems and, yeah, our, own, health and resilience. 

Bobby: Now I want to be, conscious of the fact that we have listeners that are listening from outside of the US and we've been talking a lot about American politics and, that seems to happen a lot in the regenerative ag space. Is a lot of conversations, seems to be largely US and or North America and focused, What can you say for those that are listening from outside of the US in terms of either resources for organizations that perhaps they should be following along, for example, I know that a bunch of folks in the Savory Network are part of a new organization called the European Alliance for Regenerative Agriculture EARA, I think is the, acronym, how that's pronounced.

but are there other organizations, that are similar to LandCore but perhaps, focusing on healthy soils in other countries or other resources or lessons learned even that folks outside of the u the US can, take from everything that you're doing. 

Aria: Yeah, I think unfortunately so much of our focus is, really on the us but I will say that I do think that the. Some of the needs and opportunities strike me as being remarkably similar. I think some of the issues that, Australia or Canada or Europe, and, I imagine to, some degree, another developed, is, just strikingly true.

There are issues with, the cost of, land in terms of young and beginning farmers, into the business. there are issues with, and opportunities in terms of, codifying the approach to measuring, and monitoring and reporting on, soil health. And then having, we touched on, get that apply to whether it's, a new scheme or an incentive with a national bank like National Australia Bank, I know is looking at this in a, in Australia, which is exciting.

But, there's always just more work to do there with, measurement and monitoring and reporting just on and on. I think that's part of what is. Validating and exciting about the spaces that the principles of soil health do bear out to be true, across, different, countries and, contexts. and that similar sort of lessons learned. I think in terms of, I, I would certainly advise a focus, where of a possible on the economic benefits, of health practices. I'd advise a focus on, and programs that are incentive based and voluntary because I think while you might make some grounds in a more, quote unquote progressive area or progressive legislature, that doesn't mean that it isn't also susceptible to backlash, which can, inadvertently set us back.

And it's hard to see, how that plays out except in, hindsight. So just being, I think keeping a mind to campaigns and legislation and programs that are evergreen in their field, and that are so slow and steady in their build. I think ultimately might have more sort of durability, as upfront viability in terms of getting things passed.

and, just dealing with, politics, I think that the political trends are like weirdly similar in a lot of these different countries. that's, a, general note, but I, think one that's, worth hating. 

Bobby: I can't help but notice we keep coming back to making the economic case for soil health. It seems to be that is probably the greatest acupuncture point for, these discussions. And I'm curious, when you engage with a lawmaker or some sort of gatekeeper who has influence, like how does that conversation go around the economic case?

Pretend I'm a lawmaker and you're making the economic case for, soil health, how would you, state your case? 

Aria: I'm I'm not so good at the, role playing, but

Bobby: We don't. 

Aria: I. no. I that where folks have that natural skepticism, we tend to come in and say oh, these incredible soil health practices are gonna do so much on a farmer's operation. And, and folks will be like, those risky, unproven, innovative, weird, wild new soil health practices, we need to go carefully and we need to support farmers in taking those, risks. so I think where you have that sort of inherent, like it's, that's not gonna work for us, that might work for those people over there, but that's not gonna work in our backyard or just the perception of, Innovation and, risk that is, just beyond what's known or what's already adopted in, a member's district or in a, on a farmer's farm. to talk about the cost savings, that can be gained from, by building soil health. being able to either do less passes with, a tractor or maybe purchasing a little bit less synthetic nitrogen fertilizer because you're building the fertility, through plants and through the health of the, soil. being able to do a soil health test and show, actually, there's plenty of nitrogen here, you might be able to, reduce your inputs by 30%. Let's talk about the, profitability of that crunching those numbers, if you're a farmer, a rancher yourself, and you can share that story, with a, with an office that's, as, as, good as it gets. then we try to, echo and amplify those, stories, with those members to share. actually, even though it might seem a little, and a little bit different than what we've been doing, in fact, there, there are these benefits. 

Bobby: Are there any specific data points that you find yourself going back to that are particularly effective? and I guess that could be data points or reports or even anecdotal stories from, folks that you've engaged with. what is I. What causes people to, to perk up and, lean in when, you talk about it? 

Aria: Yeah, some degree I think that the, findings from, our risk model research to say that, in fact, crop rotations and dry weather are increasing yields a little bit, I think that gets folks to, to sit up a little bit because, sometimes there's the assumption that, these practices will have some benefits over the long term, but there's, gonna be a, an initial yield dip for the first three to five years. so I think just even showing that in fact there can be, some upfront gains, gets folks attention. I think the amount of, the, 1% increase in, in soil organic matter leading to what is it an, additional 26, thousand, per acre of, water available on the field.

talking about being able to reduce the cost of, irrigation or the amount of irrigation. is pretty darn compelling. and then, there are also folks I think maybe on the more pointy end of the spear, but, folks who feel like they don't even need to pay for the cost of a crop insurance policy because they're so confident in the resilience of their operation.

They, feel that they've built up, their soil health so much that sort of line item on their, budget just isn't necessary anymore. I think that can be pretty interesting for folks to hear as well. 

Bobby: What about the climate implications? is that a driver of conversation? I've, noticed that it hasn't really come up much in this conversation despite it being fairly prominent in the, broader regenerative agriculture space. Is that something that is perhaps of lesser concern for policymakers? 

Aria: Our sense is that it is not the overarching driver of, new, policies in agriculture for the majority of members. I certainly, I think that there are some, democrats who have made that, a flagship sort of part of the, issue that in order to address climate, we wanna, build up soil health and resilience. Again, I think I have some concerns with the durability, of those policies and proposals. also I think that there are, in terms of the farmers and ranchers that these, policies are designed to serve. certainly there are some folks why they get out of bed in the morning, that they're there for that reason. But I think in terms of reaching a broader swath of, farmers, especially folks who might already be, farming in a more conventional way, to get. those folks. And even considering transitioning, sense is that climate is not necessarily the sort of start starting, sort of motivator, or the, way that you would open that conversation. Although, of course, any producer is, gonna be able to tell you when the weather is wacky or has been a tough year. and we're seeing plenty of that. And I think in places where there have been, some of the hurricanes in the south, for example, seeing, grieve from, pasture bird talking about how well he was able to, hold up and those really significant rainstorms and, and flooding and everything, and to see that those pastures were draining.

I, think that those anecdotal, we got hit and came out not too bad and our neighbors unfortunately didn't fare as well. that is, that's, me, that's pretty significant. But I, do think it really, it's about. Knowing your audience and starting with the, rationale is gonna appeal to them first and foremost.

there's a, marketing communications approach to it. 

Bobby: Yeah, it seems like the climate discussion is one that is, perhaps not leading, but it's the pieces where climate affects things in terms of risk mitigation for, 

Aria: Yeah.

Bobby: wildfire drought, flooding, some of these areas that you've mentioned. So it's not a discussion of what is the parts per million of atmospheric CO2 and what is the potential for healthy soils to, reduce that number in terms of decarbonizing the atmosphere.

But it's more a discussion of how can we build resilience into our landscapes and what does that mean for our agricultural producers and the communities that they serve. Is that right? 

Aria: I think that's right. Yeah. I think that, that's. I would say that's a, a stronger way in and, just again, something that is probably more relevant and tangible and meaningful, both to a farmer potentially to, I think for sure, for policymakers as well. Yeah. Yeah. said. 

Bobby: what are your thoughts around what is your theory of change, I guess is what I want to ask. And what I mean by that is you hear from a lot of people that change starts at the grassroots level and builds through public sentiment. And as that gains critical mass and enough momentum, eventually the powers that be the government forces and politics will eventually follow, but they'll follow with massive force.

And so that seems to be a theory of change that many folks have that if you're gonna. Try to enact change. You need to start at the grassroots level and build coalitions and build momentum from there. And don't expect government to change things for you. You work directly at the top down approach, trying to influence change with those policy makers.

And so is your theory of change different from those that say it starts at the grassroots level and that government eventually follows? Where do you, sit with that? 

Aria: I, my approach to theory of change is that multiple theories of change can and should be complimentary. excuse me. So maybe, I think

absolutely absolutely, that, grassroots, approach. needed. I think that underestimating or not giving away, your power as an individual is extremely important.

It's extremely empowering to take stock of all of the ways in which you do have voice and, the ways in which I can speak even for myself, I think, we under leverage those opportunities to have a voice all the time. it's why community city council meetings just fly by under the radar 'cause we're just doing whatever else that we're doing with our Tuesday night not showing up, so there's, there are all sorts of opportunities, for folks at the individual level. I think particularly in the instance of agriculture in which we. Do have some pretty entrenched major, systems. we haven't just consolidated what we grow in this country. We've also consolidated a lot of the infrastructure that gets that product, to market. so there are some like major pieces of infrastructure that do need some policy changes or, policy changes that support shifts in what we invest and where, that I think are just not, impossible, but, can be changed at a larger level.

Like you can fundraise as an individual community member to get a new, seed, piece of infrastructure or a new mill, in your community or in your local food and watershed and, individually build up that infrastructure. And there are wonderful examples of that happening all over the country. but, I do think that our sense is that the extent to which that needs to happen individually versus, able to make some of those sort of more system level changes, as we've said, come from, that, that federal, or policy approach. and and then that's true because we're also looking at the flows of money.

we've had this wonderful sort of shift in this movement from great, got it. Soil health, the regenerative agriculture, is the, those are terms that are now on so many more folks, lips and, there is that sort of base level of awareness. But I, we are, I think as an industry and as a movement focusing on the how now, and that is policy, that is finance, that is crop insurance.

some of these sort of systemic changes and again, policy just is one of the ways gets impacted, not in

opposition

to other theories of change.

Bobby: What about, coming from a slightly different angle, looking not at the federal level, but looking at change happening more at the state and local level. How do tho how does state and local affect federal policy, if at all, are do you find any, correlation between what's happening at the state and local level and federal level? 

Aria: Yeah, there are great, state level programs, the, Illinois cover crop, program that was, paying farmers, $5 an acre to, implement cover crops. the fact that, bipartisan, with farmer participation and feedback and, evidence on how they worked and where they can be improved, that's very solid, grounds with which to approach, federal policy.

So those examples a might be a little bit easier to, to get started, to get off the ground. and then they, absolutely, can inform and support and encourage, the federal, process. So that's one piece. of course, state and local Are the of playing fields in which federal policies are enacted.

So it also goes in the other, as well. But, yeah, I think that there are both opportunities and, moments of, connection, at, all sort of three scales there. 

Bobby: We're probably gonna start wrapping up here. I've gone through, I'm amazed. I had so many questions and I've actually been able to ask a lot of them. we've been going at. At a pretty steady clip, which I appreciate, efficiency in interviewing. but I'm just kinda curious where you see soil health policy going, let's say over the next five to 10 years.

realistically, where do you think things are headed? 

Aria: it's a good question. I do think that overall, the, genie is out of the bottle and that more and more, players are gonna continue show up for, agriculture, for regenerative agriculture, for soil health in a way that just continues to expand, all of our collective work. I do think, of course, in the, US there are gonna be some, think some pretty, changes one way, or the other that might, maybe temporarily impact how people participate, or shift in and change. But overall, I do think that the momentum is gonna continue the education and the understanding. we have this incredible. I think for some folks, unexpected moment where the connection between soil health and human health is really on the political stage. And, you have, conservatives talking about, the ills of ultra processed foods and Democrats taking different, approaches altogether.

it, it is a, like a mixed up, topsy-turvy time in which, traditional political, lines aren't necessarily holding. I guess maybe said more clearly and positively, there's just interest, really across, across the board, in making some of these adjustments and, centering soil health, whether that's in the dietary guidelines or in procurement, school lunches and at universities and hospitals, all these interesting opportunities where, supporting farmers, in, producing, crops domestically and, abroad and, real markets and opportunities, to expand that work. there just is a lot of, interest and opportunity. There's, I think probably while there will be a little bit of, skittishness at the, in terms of involvement in, federal policy or, just, I, guess I would frame it as uncertainty, we are, expecting some changes, that overall won't stop the, momentum and, involvement in, soil health policy. 

Bobby: Yeah, I one would hope. you did mention just now the USDA dietary guidelines, and so I'm curious, is there anything in the works for, soil health and or regenerative agriculture as it relates to USDA dietary guidelines? 

Aria: I think that's actually, overseen by the health and human, services, de department. but of course, that plays out in terms of agriculture. it, it certainly has, immediate knock on effects there. But yes, there, there were recently some sort of public comment opportunities, talk about, shaping the next round of, of the dietary guidelines for, 2030.

looking quite, far ahead. and we, LandCore submitted, some very high level comments talking about the opportunity, of, including, so health. This is not a typical area of focus for us, but, Where we see an opportunity to advance soil health and, we think that we can put together, something that has some merit and grounds, then, think that is a fair game.

And yeah, do think it would be pretty interesting and exciting to see, not just what kind of food, but, helping more, Americans and more individuals, think about how that food has grown, as the center of health. that's quite a, wonderful and practical, manifestation of, all of that. 

Bobby: Could you provide some of the specifics of some of the comments that LandCore provided on the dietary guidelines? Just to get into the weeds a little bit of what might a, a consideration for soil health look like in the dietary guidelines? Like specifically 

Aria: broadly we've talked about, just simply promoting, soil health and agriculture and encouraging dietary choices and food systems that support soil health, including food grown from farms or ranches that implement soil health management practices. that can also be expressed in terms of increasing the diversity of foods both grown and consumed. I think we talk about having variety in our diets, but then thinking about how that connects back, to the farm. and all of us thinking about ways that we can support, and growing a broader diversity, crops. And, and livestock is, that is how we improve soil health. dietary guidelines can also do things like supporting local and seasonal, eating. and it could also do things like encouraging, education on the sort of soil food nutrition, link. So a range of sort of simple principles, that we've included, including, encouraging perennial crops, is another one, fruit nut, tree crops, are wonderful the soil and for more, more resilient systems and, are very often, correlated, some of those, healthier diets as well.

So there's lots of different ways that can, take shape. And I imagine we can probably share the, link to those comments as well, so folks get an idea. 

Bobby: Wonderful. We'll put 'em in the show notes. so I guess just to, to start to wrap things up or maybe to wrap things up here, what's the future look like for, you and LandCore? what sorts of things do you have on the horizon? what do you wanna let folks know about? 

Aria: Yeah, absolutely. would say that we are continuing to expand, our risk modeling, research into, we're looking forward to publishing, additional results both in, academic papers, but also, in the, tool itself. And then, I would say that we are cooking up, additional partnerships with ag, lenders and insurers, that can start to, take into consideration and maybe even offer, new incentives or, say a, new crop insurance, that recognizes the risk reducing benefits of these practices.

that area of work is something that we're really, excited about and welcome input and collaboration on. There are endless opportunities, in the federal, policy space and, I would say policy space more broadly. so we'll be con continuing to, be a really consistent, steady, voice, for soil health and in all of the arenas that, that we be, encourage folks, and others to do the same. I think the value of consistency, the value of showing up is, little bit of a, theme, for this, conversation. we will be doing that and encourage other folks, do the, same as well. we have a monthly, newsletter that folks can sign up. It's a little text heavy, but folks do read it, which we appreciate.

I love all of the people who write, to us and let us know that they our, long, wonky stuff. but no, we try to make it as, engaging and accessible, as possible. it's definitely, as we've talked about, we are pretty committed to educational resources and nonpartisan resources.

so of course, we have a perspective about soil health. but this is a big tent and, building coalition with a broad range of folks. And, welcoming in people at any stage of the journey is, definitely, of where we're at. So yeah, this is all ongoing work to. 

Bobby: it's, ongoing work, but it is meaningful work and we need it and I am glad to have a policy wonk in this space that I can refer folks to. So please keep it up so that I don't have to get into the weeds on all of this legislation, 'cause otherwise my head would explode. So thank you Aria and the rest of the LandCore team for all you do.

for all of our listeners, again, LandCore is the organization and we'll have links to everything discussed in the show notes. And Aria, just wanna thank you again for coming on and talking about how the sausage is made with us. Greatly appreciate it. 

Aria: Anytime. And yeah, thank you so much for all the good work that you're doing. it's great to, to have this chat, on in the, water is nice. folks will enjoy it.

Bobby: Great. All right. Thanks Aria. Take care.

Aria: Thanks Bobby. Bye.